Why do so many shops do this?

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Beendare

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May 6, 2014
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Corripe cervisiam
So many horror stories....it sure seems like the shops would be more in sync with what works for hunting arrows....namely spined stiff enough.



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Also, what exactly does good and bad arrow flight look like?
......

Simple, if your BH's don'y fly to the same POI as your FP's....you have poor arrow flight. The BH causes the arrow to veer off right out of the bow if its not coming out straight.

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Joined
Aug 23, 2014
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oregon coast
Most shops around here set people up for standard inserts and 100 grain broadheads, which puts total arrow weight in the 350-400 gr range. If you use anything heavier you’re probably going to be too weak. They have a few 340 spine arrows, but 300 and 250’s usually have to be ordered.


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I think you are spot on. Many now want weighted inserts and high foc, and if a shop isn’t well versed in that, they will likely sell the wrong arrows.
There is only one shop I would have build me arrows, besides them, I can do better myself.... none of them shoot high foc, but are well versed in it.

I don’t shoot really high either, but high enough to cross up a shop that builds arrows with stock inserts and 100gr heads.

I don’t really blame the shops, I blame the internet for telling people they need over 20% foc to kill something... just another distraction for people, and recipe for a headache if you don’t have time, money, and ability to figure it out on your own time by building and shooting arrows.

I know I miss the simple days of having a shop build me some arrows with aluminum inserts and shooting 100gr heads and not worrying about fluff, not distracted by things I all of a sudden need.

I’m on a mission to revert back to simple, I know better and have still went down rabbit holes for no reason, I’m not going back to super light and fast, but I’m not setting foc goals or even checking... I don’t care, it’s a distraction, and distraction isn’t beneficial in archery.

like I said, I blame the internet more than the shops

it's hard to have confidence without familiarity.... people would mostly be better suited shooting a practical arrow for what they do, and stick with it.... every aspect (shafts, fletch, inserts, point weight) avoid the extremes, and shoot..... not shoot to test a new arrow build, but shoot.... refine your shot, with the same equipment..... do that enough, and you are familiar and confident, nothing changes, you know exactly what's gonna happen, if you aren't shooting good one day, you don't have to question is it you or the arrow?.... you know.

adding too many variables to shooting will lead to problems, especially with newer archers. i have seen a lot of elk shot with arrows, the majority of those arrows were 100gr heads, stock aluminum inserts, 340 shafts for 70lbs, and there is a very clear pattern.... good shots end well, and bad shots don't. i have also shot some with heavy high foc arrows, and the pattern is EXACTLY the same.

i like a heavier than stock arrow for my own reasons, but people put way too much effort in new arrow builds, which i think are highly unlikely to change the outcome of a shot (within reason avoiding etremes)

hard work and confidence, and staying within your ability is what gets stuff killed, not some super high foc arrow build. the noodly arrow wouldn't be a problem if people didn't put so much emphasis on things that don't matter all that much (in real life..... it's all really important on the internet, haha)
 
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OR Archer

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Here’s a demographic of most archers out there.

75% of archers just don’t know enough about they’re equipment nor do they care to learn. They want plug and play. They want things to hit where they aim and if it does they will run with it.

Now then there’s the next 20%. This is the group that will read a bunch of crap on the internet saying they need XYZ arrow weight or FOC and they’re convinced it’ll be the best thing with no real thought on if it’ll work for their setup. Because So and So says it’s great they need it no matter what.

Then there’s the 5% that actually know what they want and understand how it actually all works together. I may be a little generous with the 5% for this group.

Ive spent over a decade in the shop I’m at now. You can only offer suggestions to customers. You still need to make the correct recommendation based on the variables you’re provided by the customer wether they choose your recommendations or not. So I wouldn’t necessarily just throw shops under the bus for arrow selection. Yes it happens however it’s not always the shops fault.
 
Joined
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Shenandoah Valley
Here’s a demographic of most archers out there.

75% of archers just don’t know enough about they’re equipment nor do they care to learn. They want plug and play. They want things to hit where they aim and if it does they will run with it.

Now then there’s the next 20%. This is the group that will read a bunch of crap on the internet saying they need XYZ arrow weight or FOC and they’re convinced it’ll be the best thing with no real thought on if it’ll work for their setup. Because So and So says it’s great they need it no matter what.

Then there’s the 5% that actually know what they want and understand how it actually all works together. I may be a little generous with the 5% for this group.

Ive spent over a decade in the shop I’m at now. You can only offer suggestions to customers. You still need to make the correct recommendation based on the variables you’re provided by the customer wether they choose your recommendations or not. So I wouldn’t necessarily just throw shops under the bus for arrow selection. Yes it happens however it’s not always the shops fault.


So wait, you mean people just come in and ask for arrows? I can hear this conversation.

Ok... Do you know what arrows?
Yeah hunting arrows.

You know what spine?
Huhh?

You know how many pounds your pulling?
How long is your draw length, how long do you want your arrow?

At this point the customer isn't talking and it's all facial movement.

I can hear this conversation because I have heard it a bunch. I'm sure some areas are different than others, but must take a huge amount of patience to handle the vast range of what you deal with. The two ends of the spectrum of people not knowing what they need and the people who think they know what they need but don't have a clue in reality.

Biggest problem is a shop needs to cater to demand. You can have a bunch of selection for your customers but not that many are really interested in it. Or they go look at it, then find it cheaper elsewhere. I research what I'm looking for and have my local shop order it for me. I understand why they can't have it on the shelf. Me and 1 maybe 2 other people might ever want it. I don't mind waiting, I'll be doing it one way or another. One way puts a little money in the pocket of a local business. Keeps a friend employed. Win win.
 

LostArra

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May 9, 2013
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Oklahoma
The owner of the one shop I trust really knows his stuff, is super helpful and gives good advice . But he primarily stocks what sells and he said what sells to the general hunting public is SPEED.
 

rclouse79

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Dec 10, 2019
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We see it time after time on every archery site.......inexperienced guys chiming in with these noodle-ly underspined arrows....and then- no surprise- they can't get their BH's to group.

What is up with these shops setting these guys up like that? Are they just trying to milk every FPS out of the bow?

All of the experienced guys I know run a shaft thats over spined......or at least if they are close to the edge on a spine size, they go up a size.

I've been running a full spine size over for about 25 years in many bows....and they tune with BH's easily.

HEY SHOPS; All of these modern compounds have shoot through risers that perform well with a stiffer arrow.......if the customer wants to hunt vs straight target shooting....set them up right.

______
Amen! Thank goodness I came to my senses and went away from the shaft the shop set me up with.
 

dkime

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Feb 25, 2015
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I can’t criticize shops too much because let’s be real here “it’s tough in the streets”. Most shops cater to clientele who shoot the least and have the lowest understanding of what their setup is capable of. This isn’t meant to sound harsh because we all probably still do our best to support our local shops but my experience is that it is 10:1 and probably closer to 20:1 of customers who come in just before season a those who actually hang around and are fairly dedicated to the craft. A shop owner pays his groceries through sales volume and quick turn over because a guy can’t wrap up all of his capital in inventory, especially when he is lucky to make 20% gross margin. Bow sales don’t carry the shop or keep the lights on and that’s the only thing a shop has over the online retailer. The system is broken and we’re all seeing the result of it with consumer direct companies popping up. Now with Covid occurring it’s going to get even worse because the manufacturers are going to need sales more than they need protected territories or honestly more than they need shops. I know this was a thread specifically about the arrow setups they offer and you’re 100% right most shops are just trying to serve their clientele. It’s tough because in my mind the customer is as much of an issue as the shop owner because they’re going to order shafts from an online retailer and take them into a shop and expect them to be cut for free. Or buy a POS crossbow from a box store, break it, and expect the shop to warranty it. In my experience living in a few different states and areas, most shop owners don’t even shoot as much as their customers because they can’t afford to. As a business owner and a guy who used to work in this industry I get it, it’s tough. I’m not making excuses for anyone, I think the customer and shop owner relationship both need to be held to a higher standard.


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CAhunter

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
188
I have a local shop I wanted to support and buy some shafts for an arrow build. On the charts I’m in between a 340 and a 300 and wanted the 300’s. Dude tried to sell me and tell me I needed 400’s. It’s hard to go back to a place like that.
 

Ian Ketterman

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Jul 1, 2019
Messages
252
Location
MO
I was in the Des Moines Scheels almost a month ago on my way home from a fishing trip. Rest had been bumped over a hair and I couldn't get it fixed at the range, so I stopped on my way home to use their little backroom range to shoot it through paper. While I was waiting, the 2 employees were helping a kid get set up for his first bow, which looked like a stereotypical 'Ready2Hunt' bow from any big box place. The kid in the archery dept. called a manager to help him pick out arrows which resulted in ''we'll just use the spine chart here'' and the kid leaving with some 600's.

I don't know what he was shooting, but I can't imagine he needed wet noodles, my wife shoots 42# at 26.5'' and her 400's work great.


Side note* this Scheels has dropped some quality since I've lived there as just trying to paper tune my Reckoning in the range for 5 minutes was akin to asking the guy if I could borrow his wife for a night. ''We don't work on bowtechs''. Well I don't need you to do anything besides let me use your range for a second. ''If you break an arrow we can't replace it'', ''We're not supposed to let anyone shoot in their besides staff''. Incredible hassle from them, I mean jeez. I finally got in and then he argued about ''tail right'', ''tail left'', ''too close to the seam in the target''. And they don't even has a chronograph anymore. It was just an all around off putting experience.
 
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Oct 17, 2015
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British Columbia
Well I've only been in the archery world for a 5 years now, fifth hunting season coming up. Here's been my progression with shops. Quick summary at the end.

Year 1 '16 - Went in in the spring before season, had no idea what a release was or what anything was on a bow. This, is, a, foreign, object. I just knew to go to a reputable shop. Bought a Diamond with a complete package already on it, 12 Hunter XT 400's. Slowly learned the parts and did research. Went hunting with it that year, had fun saw elk, it was my first year bowhunting and a 40 yard shot was out of my comfort. Too long for me at the time. I had a broadside shot on a 6 point at 60 yards I'd take any day now!

Year 2 '17 - Feet wet now and got a Halon 32-5 from the shop. I was chasing speed and they didn't put their 2 cents in. Heard a podcast about skinny shafts and bought 340 Injexions and kept it LIGHT, 420-430 grains. Started to fletch blazers on my own. Wounded an elk that year at 5 yards... still kills me.

Year 3 '18 - Some experience under me but still not messing much with my bow at all. Shop tunes it, I get a bullet hole through paper and leave it there for the season. Bows tuned, I guess, I'm not touching anything though. Got out of the skinny shaft world, moved to BR Spartans. I bought some from South Shore Archery Supply and they dumped a TON of knowledge on arrows to me and steered me away from the FOC rabbit hole and set me up with 300 spined arrows after talking through my entire setup. Killed my first bull at 73 yards.

Year 4 '19 - Matrix target and a paper tuning setup in the house. However, I'm starting to go nuts on my arrow now. 4 fletch, inserts, IW broadheads, different fletchings, building my own arrows from cutting to a finished product. Didn't mess with cutting for stiffness. Started using Archers Advantage and told me I was in the ball park. Bow is still being tuned by the shop and I trust them. Kill my second bull at 93 yards.

Year 5 '20 - VXR 31.5, full custom with everything I wanted on it. Grabbed the bow from the shop and didn't let them touch it. I felt bad but I got all my accessories online. They just didn't stock what I wanted. I went out and spent a ton on all of my own tuning equipment from LCA. I kept my Halon 32-5 and come to find out when I started stripping it apart to do a full re-tune the hamskea rest was pushing my arrow a full inch cocked to the left because the Hamskea wouldn't fit otherwise, WOW. It took me forever to get the top hats correct and the shot centered but man, that Halon 32-5 was a lights out bow after tuning it. My resentment for shops started as I had brought it to two shops! I guess it shot good but why didn't anyone tell me that the hamskea rest just wasn't meant for a 5" BH bow!? I was aggravated.

Now, I fully set up both bows in my garage and got everything dead on. Perfect center shot, bow level 1st, 2nd, 3rd. I bare shaft tune the arrows out to 30 yards, I make very small tweaks with top hats then the rest for any consistent kicks left and right then up and down. Cut the arrows 1/4" at a time until they're centered.

At the end of the day, in my 5th year, I realized at this point there is no way a shop can give that level of service for 65 dollars nor afford a person who has the intimate knowledge unless they're an owner. I think a good shop is great to get you where you need to be shooting a pie plate at 40 with the ability to kill an animal but for the amount of money.

As far as arrow shafts... yeah, they wanted to use 400's on my Halon 32 at 72lbs just because they were out of 340's and I asked for 300's
 

Gorp2007

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Dec 4, 2016
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Southern Nevada
I’ll pile on here. Shop I used to go to (never again after yesterday) told a guy he was way over spined shooting 300s out of a 70lb bow and 29” draw. Then proceeded to paper tune it with an intentional nock tear (can’t remember if it was right or left) to “counter that stiff arrow.”

Long story short, they’ve screwed up a couple things on my bow and now I drive from San Antonio to Austin just to get to an actual pro shop I can trust and the drive to get there will be worth it every time. Once I got to Archery Country up in Austin they tuned the bow, then took the time to watch me shoot and recommended I lengthen my draw a full inch and swapped the mods for free. They told me my 340s might be a touch underspined, but it shot bullet holes for both me and the tech.
 
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