Why Strength Train

Poser

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Poser you make good points. I think k it can come down to a difference between people who have maintained strength training over many years vs older people who are just starting after a long lay off.

Have a good day.

This is true. Afterall, If you can’t extend your arm all of the way, you can’t perform a press. Some people may need some of that work in order to get to a place where they can perform the movements to begin with.
 

Marbles

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The compound lifts are a “complete whole body program” squat, press, bench press, deadlift trains every single muscle in the body.
This is a laughable over statement, even if limiting the definition of "muscle" to skeletal muscles only (reasonable given the context) and removing facial muscles from consideration (also reasonable given the context).

All of those exercises tie bilateral extremities to each other as well, thus they fail to train stability and to adequately train the numerous muscles involved in that stability to include some large skeletal muscles.
Ankle mobility. Squatting for strength, be it low bar or high bar squat, involves driving the knees out to include as much muscle recruitment as possible, particularly the hip abductors. This is different than the typical hypertrophy/bodybuilder/ “bro” squat where the knees are maintained inline with the toes to focus on quad development. This position absolutely maintains effective ankle ROM and also strengthens the ankle considerably over time.
So, full flexion, extension, abduction, adduction, pronation, and supination are not part of effective ankle ROM?
 

P Carter

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This is a laughable over statement, even if limiting the definition of "muscle" to skeletal muscles only (reasonable given the context) and removing facial muscles from consideration (also reasonable given the context).

All of those exercises tie bilateral extremities to each other as well, thus they fail to train stability and to adequately train the numerous muscles involved in that stability to include some large skeletal muscles.

So, full flexion, extension, abduction, adduction, pronation, and supination are not part of effective ankle ROM?
If you spent more time strength training, then you could more effectively bow out of this conversation.

(Just joking, in case it isn't apparent. I've been part of/a spectator to many of these threads, which combine some kernals of of truth amongst what appear to be a whole lot of...not that. Overall, good internet entertainment.)
 

Marbles

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If you spent more time strength training, then you could more effectively bow out of this conversation.

(Just joking, in case it isn't apparent. I've been part of/a spectator to many of these threads, which combine some kernals of of truth amongst what appear to be a whole lot of...not that. Overall, good internet entertainment.)
Discussion of biomechanics (which I am passably competent in) differs from discussion of how to achieve maximum single rep strength (which I am incompetent in).

The joke is still deserved though as I had to have a lawyerly conversation in my head about it before deciding to post.
 

Poser

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This is a laughable over statement, even if limiting the definition of "muscle" to skeletal muscles only (reasonable given the context) and removing facial muscles from consideration (also reasonable given the context).

All of those exercises tie bilateral extremities to each other as well, thus they fail to train stability and to adequately train the numerous muscles involved in that stability to include some large skeletal muscles.

So, full flexion, extension, abduction, adduction, pronation, and supination are not part of effective ankle ROM?

This sounds very much like Physical Therapists line of thinking where muscles operate in isolation. In real world application, there is no such isolation. The “numerous muscles involved in stability” work in conjunction with the large muscle groups and do not need to be trained in isolation. They never function in that capacity and they are never dominate. By training the compound lifts and the mere fact that you can support, squat, pick up, push and pull while maintaining posture, erectness etc without falling over or collapsing under load is addressing the stabilizers. For example: A properly performed squat utilizes every single muscle in the body that is below the barbell.

Ankle mobility -if you’re out and about in the world and doing athletic tasks, your ankle is getting all of the flexion, extension, supination, pronation etc that you need. What you don’t want is a “loose” and “unstable” ankle.

These “stability” aspects get thrown around a lot. But, realistically, are you out and about in the world falling down a lot?

I also don’t expect you and I will find much middle ground here. I don’t think you understand the compound lifts or the training effects that they produce.
 

Poser

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Discussion of biomechanics (which I am passably competent in) differs from discussion of how to achieve maximum single rep strength (which I am incompetent in).

The joke is still deserved though as I had to have a lawyerly conversation in my head about it before deciding to post.

Where has single rep strength been mentioned anywhere in this thread? Effective Strength training may share the same movements as the sport known as powerlifting, but they are not necessarily the same training. A general strength trainee, for example, may never perform a 1 rep max as there is little training effect to gain from it.
 

Marbles

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This sounds very much like Physical Therapists line of thinking where muscles operate in isolation. In real world application, there is no such isolation. The “numerous muscles involved in stability” work in conjunction with the large muscle groups and do not need to be trained in isolation. They never function in that capacity and they are never dominate. By training the compound lifts and the mere fact that you can support, squat, pick up, push and pull while maintaining posture, erectness etc without falling over or collapsing under load is addressing the stabilizers. For example: A properly performed squat utilizes every single muscle in the body that is below the barbell.

Ankle mobility -if you’re out and about in the world and doing athletic tasks, your ankle is getting all of the flexion, extension, supination, pronation etc that you need. What you don’t want is a “loose” and “unstable” ankle.

These “stability” aspects get thrown around a lot. But, realistically, are you out and about in the world falling down a lot?

I also don’t expect you and I will find much middle ground here. I don’t think you understand the compound lifts or the training effects that they produce.

Where have I said they should be worked in isolation? And no, there is a reason guys who squat more than double there bodyweight have difficulty performing single leg squats. Also, the calves are below the barbell and are not worked in any meaningful manner. So, once again you neglect basic anatomy to overstate your case. And no, being generally athletic does not provide adequate ankle work unless we are talking about traveling over rough ground with shoes (rather than boots).

Besides, if your argument is true for the ankles, than it is true for the quads and strength training is of no value.

Outside of the gym, it is rare to use the legs in the form of a squat. The isolated, artificial strength that is trained with squatting does not translate well into the strength required to stabilize the pelvis and ankle while standing on one foot. A squat isolates the large muscles. Of course I already touched on this.

Bench press is also very isolated in what it works. Push-up with a partner sitting on ones back comes much closer to "whole body" as it requires core strength (something the bench intentionally eleminates to isolate the large muscles), the use of a bar is also to further isolate the large muscles. There is a reason why bench pressing a certain weight does not translate into being able to bench the same weight using dumbbells.

Also, my colleagues in PT rarely focus on exercises that isolate muscle groups (unless addressing a specific problem the patient has). Some may, but it sounds like you understand PT even less than I do.

Where has single rep strength been mentioned anywhere in this thread? Effective Strength training may share the same movements as the sport known as powerlifting, but they are not necessarily the same training. A general strength trainee, for example, may never perform a 1 rep max as there is little training effect to gain from it.
Fair. But little functional difference between 1 rep max and 3-5 rep max. Outside of the gym and competition, neither apply to many applications once someone can move more than bodyweight. Having never trained strength as you described, last time I tried I could squat more than double my bodyweight for 6 reps. Don't see any point to training to squat more than 300-400 pounds and don't see any point to train strength (as you define it) when muscular endurance alone gets me to those numbers.

If I had a gym membership, I would go see what I could do as it has been years since I last tried. I am older, less active, and probably weaker.

Strength is the ability to apply force. Strength training is the systematic progression of increasing force production.

Low weight, high rep is not strength training. Strength training is heavy weight, low rep, usually in the 3-5 rep range.
 

LostArra

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Outside of the gym, it is rare to use the legs in the form of a squat. The isolated, artificial strength that is trained with squatting does not translate well into the strength required to stabilize the pelvis and ankle while standing on one foot. A squat isolates the large muscles.
Those are three bizarre sentences.

Properly done squats are a hip/back/"posterior chain" exercise that train the quads as a by product.
How do you get out of a chair or off the toilet?

To properly do a below parallel squat (or especially zap's ass to grass) requires absolute full body "core"stability to just to keep from falling over even without weight on your back.

How much time to you spend training to stand on one foot? And why?

Plenty of normal people have no interest in weight training and that's fine but leave it at that.
I have no interest in burpees, bosu balls or standing on one foot but I wouldn't encourage talking crazy sh#* about those activities.
 

Poser

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Where have I said they should be worked in isolation? And no, there is a reason guys who squat more than double there bodyweight have difficulty performing single leg squats. Also, the calves are below the barbell and are not worked in any meaningful manner. So, once again you neglect basic anatomy to overstate your case. And no, being generally athletic does not provide adequate ankle work unless we are talking about traveling over rough ground with shoes (rather than boots).

Besides, if your argument is true for the ankles, than it is true for the quads and strength training is of no value.

Outside of the gym, it is rare to use the legs in the form of a squat. The isolated, artificial strength that is trained with squatting does not translate well into the strength required to stabilize the pelvis and ankle while standing on one foot. A squat isolates the large muscles. Of course I already touched on this.

Bench press is also very isolated in what it works. Push-up with a partner sitting on ones back comes much closer to "whole body" as it requires core strength (something the bench intentionally eleminates to isolate the large muscles), the use of a bar is also to further isolate the large muscles. There is a reason why bench pressing a certain weight does not translate into being able to bench the same weight using dumbbells.

Also, my colleagues in PT rarely focus on exercises that isolate muscle groups (unless addressing a specific problem the patient has). Some may, but it sounds like you understand PT even less than I do.


Fair. But little functional difference between 1 rep max and 3-5 rep max. Outside of the gym and competition, neither apply to many applications once someone can move more than bodyweight. Having never trained strength as you described, last time I tried I could squat more than double my bodyweight for 6 reps. Don't see any point to training to squat more than 300-400 pounds and don't see any point to train strength (as you define it) when muscular endurance alone gets me to those numbers.

If I had a gym membership, I would go see what I could do as it has been years since I last tried. I am older, less active, and probably weaker.

Holy massive misunderstanding of everything. Sheesh.
 
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Marbles

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Those are three bizarre sentences.

Properly done squats are a hip/back/"posterior chain" exercise that train the quads as a by product.
How do you get out of a chair or off the toilet?

To properly do a below parallel squat (or especially zap's ass to grass) requires absolute full body "core"stability to just to keep from falling over even without weight on your back.

How much time to you spend training to stand on one foot? And why?

Plenty of normal people have no interest in weight training and that's fine but leave it at that.
I have no interest in burpees, bosu balls or standing on one foot but I wouldn't encourage talking crazy sh#* about those activities.
You need to squat hundreds of pounds to stand up from the toilet? Follow the context. Also, if someone needs to plant both feet to stand up from any position there functional strength is severely lacking.

I have not said people should not strength train (defined in this thread as progressively adding weight to max at 3-5 reps to the exclusion of any other resistance activity being in the definition), only that I find no value in it for my purposes.

During nearly every activity that moves over distance, the load is carried by one leg at a time. I don't train to stand on one foot, but to flip the pointless question, how much time do you spend training to stand on two feet? And why?

If an unweighted squat stresses ones core strength and balance, there are some major issues that need to be addressed.

If only doing weighted squats makes you happy, great, do all you want. But to claim they adequately work every muscle below the level of the bar (as has been claimed in this thread) is a gross misstatement. I have not even argued that squats lack value (I do them for "muscular endurance" to stick with definitions provided in this thread). What I have argued is they and deadlifts are not enough to be used exclusively for lower body training (contrary to claims in this thread).

Also, I never said I don't train with weights. I said I prefer low weight high reps and was told this is not strength training. Again, follow the context.
 

Hoodie

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Fair. But little functional difference between 1 rep max and 3-5 rep max. Outside of the gym and competition, neither apply to many applications once someone can move more than bodyweight.

My unit when I was in the military had an MOS specific annual fitness test that involved a 12 mile ruck with 50lbs. I cut my average time down by 30 minutes without changing anything about my conditioning. I just added actual strength training (heavy barbell compound lifts around 5 reps) and gained 20lbs of muscle.

If you take a 185lb dude who squats 185x1 and get his squat to 315x5 he is going to notice a massive difference in his ability to move in uneven terrain under a heavy load.

It doesn't matter that when he squats his feet are on a level platform and the bar is evenly weighted. Force production is force production.
 

Marbles

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My unit when I was in the military had an MOS specific annual fitness test that involved a 12 mile ruck with 50lbs. I cut my average time down by 30 minutes without changing anything about my conditioning. I just added actual strength training (heavy barbell compound lifts around 5 reps) and gained 20lbs of muscle.

If you take a 185lb dude who squats 185x1 and get his squat to 315x5 he is going to notice a massive difference in his ability to move in uneven terrain under a heavy load.

It doesn't matter that when he squats his feet are on a level platform and the bar is evenly weighted. Force production is force production.
N o argument from me on that. A best of bodyweight x1 (as in the example above) is not much of a strength base, and anything that builds that base will result in a large performance improvement.
 

Marbles

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Holy massive misunderstanding of everything. Sheesh.
Could be, thanks to this thread I have cleared up one area of confusion. Squat form, as explained by Starting Strength (thanks to this thread I have read several of their articles on squats) is a much more useful exercise than the squat as I was taught. I have had more people fuss at me to point my toes straight ahead and not go past 90 degrees because "going deep hurts your knees" than I can count. Most of them spent a lot more time under weights than me, so I assumed they knew something I did not.

If nothing else, I owe you a huge thanks for getting me to read and figure out I have been taught a load of bull shit regarding squat form. Admittedly, the form taught by Starting Strength is intuitive and is what I want to believe anyway, so confirmation bias effects my evaluation of what they have to say.
 
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Poser

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My unit when I was in the military had an MOS specific annual fitness test that involved a 12 mile ruck with 50lbs. I cut my average time down by 30 minutes without changing anything about my conditioning. I just added actual strength training (heavy barbell compound lifts around 5 reps) and gained 20lbs of muscle.

If you take a 185lb dude who squats 185x1 and get his squat to 315x5 he is going to notice a massive difference in his ability to move in uneven terrain under a heavy load.

It doesn't matter that when he squats his feet are on a level platform and the bar is evenly weighted. Force production is force production.

Along those lines, take a guy who weighs 185#, put a 50# pack on him and send him straight up a 2,000 foot slope averaging 37 degrees. I don’t know how to do the math on the gravitational resistance of the slope angle + Bodyweight + pack weight, but compared to walking on flat ground, the person in our example is putting out a pretty hefty amount of force production. Since it is a task he will have to repeat thousands of times to get up the slope, it must be a submaximal output or it can’t be repeated ad nasuem.

That example shows pretty clearly the benefits of being stronger than one might think they need to be. (And let’s just throw in there that this climb starts at 10,500 feet and ends at 12,500 feet and is South facing in the blazing sun. Full disclosure: I actually did this very climb on Sunday at 207 lbs with more like a 40 lbs pack and the sun about crushed me)
 
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Hardly_Hangin

Hardly_Hangin

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Please don't take offense at this, but if you started LP 4 weeks ago it is not "heavy" yet and it shouldn't be a "blistering grind".

I only say this because it's very common for people to feel like they're nearing the end when their squat gets to 225x5. Don't short change yourself. When it starts to feel heavy is when the real progress begins on that program. Every male I've helped through LP has squatted at least 300x5. I squatted 365x5 and I'm far from genetically gifted and have some old overuse injuries to baby.
Great dialoge in this thread - very interesting articles.

Hoodie for record no offense taken! At the end of 4 weeks i hit 325x5 on squat, 225 x5 bench, 140x5 OHP and 360x5 deadlift. I will probably revisit this program after seasons are over.
 

Hoodie

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Great dialoge in this thread - very interesting articles.

Hoodie for record no offense taken! At the end of 4 weeks i hit 325x5 on squat, 225 x5 bench, 140x5 OHP and 360x5 deadlift. I will probably revisit this program after seasons are over.

That sounds crazy for progress on linear progression. You either have good genetics, or you may not be a good fit for the definition of a novice. Did you by any chance have prior experience with compound lifts before doing the program? Like 5/3/1 or weight lifting for school sports?

Linear progression doesn't go on forever. Starting Strength is only designed to get the easy gains off the table as fast as possible. When LP stalls you need to move to an intermediate program. Texas Method, The Bridge by Barbell Medicine, or 5/31 are good options depending on how quickly you want to get stronger.

If you aren't in a rush to hit further PRs (and you don't want to spend much time lifting) I'd recommend 5/3/1. Plenty of recovery room left in that program to use for conditioning. And progress is so slow it's essentially like maintenance.
 
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Hardly_Hangin

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That sounds crazy for progress on linear progression. You either have good genetics, or you may not be a good fit for the definition of a novice. Did you by any chance have prior experience with compound lifts before doing the program? Like 5/3/1 or weight lifting for school sports?

Linear progression doesn't go on forever. Starting Strength is only designed to get the easy gains off the table as fast as possible. When LP stalls you need to move to an intermediate program. Texas Method, The Bridge by Barbell Medicine, or 5/31 are good options depending on how quickly you want to get stronger.

If you aren't in a rush to hit further PRs (and you don't want to spend much time lifting) I'd recommend 5/3/1. Plenty of recovery room left in that program to use for conditioning. And progress is so slow it's essentially like maintenance.
Yes, i lifted for sports in highschool pretty seriously. I overestimated what weights to start at and how quickly i could add weight and stalled out pretty quick. In retrospect i should have started lower on deadlift and made smaller jumps on squat.

Good call! Based on some feedback i got when i started this thread i started 5/3/1 and will finish my 3rd cycle this week. Ive been mixing in kb conditioning circuits after the lifts, and trying to incorporate rucking/hiking. Definitely enjoying spending less time in gym though
 
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