Wind question

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Today I went out shooting some rocks. New favorite thing to do. So here is the question. First 300 yards full value 10 mph wind, next 500 yards opens up to the canyon an was a full value, same direction at 15 mph. I noticed a difference in the brush and mirage. I walked up to check after the shot. What is the right way to figure this wind out?

What I did was figured out what 800 would be for 10, and then 15. Then it split the difference. I know this is not the right thing to do, but I gave it the Redneck try. I actually hit my spot, well I was 3 inches on the windward side, but that's a hit in my book. Mostly think I got lucky.
 

Matt Cashell

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I would just shoot it for the 15mph wind, since you are getting more drift at the reduced velocities past 300, and the difference to 300 isn't that much between a 10mph and 15mph (like 2-3 inches).

Nice shot!
 

Matt Cashell

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That is just how I would shoot it. Maybe some of the extreme range guys (Sam, Broz, Ryan, etc.) will chime in with some good tips.

The wind gets me way more often than I get it.
 
OP
fire arrow
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I just didn't have the right training or knowledge for this one. Kinda thought about it, tried to come up with something that made since, took the shot, and wrote it down in my shooting journal.
 

Broz

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I find it best to just read the wind at the rifle and favor the higher readings. Until you go way way out there the wind at the rifle has the greatest effect. Reason is the first wind starts the bullet off path, the sooner the bullet is started off path the larger the error the farther out you go. Also remember you are sending the bullet above the line of sight to the target and wind will always increase as you go higher up.

Another thing to remember is while shooting across a canyon wind will be faster in the middle. Think of it like water in a stream, slower along the banks but faster in the middle. Thus the reason I lean toward the higher readings on my kestrel again.

Jeff
 

luke moffat

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I find it best to just read the wind at the rifle and favor the higher readings. Until you go way way out there the wind at the rifle has the greatest effect. Reason is the first wind starts the bullet off path, the sooner the bullet is started off path the larger the error the farther out you go. Also remember you are sending the bullet above the line of sight to the target and wind will always increase as you go higher up.

Another thing to remember is while shooting across a canyon wind will be faster in the middle. Think of it like water in a stream, slower along the banks but faster in the middle. Thus the reason I lean toward the higher readings on my kestrel again.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, thats a great explanation even dumbed down enough that I can understand it! I appreciate it certainly!
 
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fire arrow
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Thanks for the info. Would you care to throw out some advice apposing winds. First few hundred yards is coming from 3 o'clock and the remainder is coming from 9 o'clock.
 

Matt Cashell

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Great info Jeff!

I don't want to speak for fire arrow, but I am curious as to what your hold would be for his original shot. That is 10mph full value to 300 and 15mph full value past there to 800. Would you just hold for the 10mph at the rifle? average it like fire arrow did? or something else? Also curious on your take on opposing winds.

thanks!
 
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I am not a long range shooter, but wouldn't you want to determine the drift for the first 300 yards (let's say 2" to the right) and then the drift for the last 500 yards (let's say 4.5" to the right) and add them together to get 6.5" to the right?
 
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fire arrow
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800 gave me 6.3 minutes at 15mph, and 4.1 minutes for 10mph.

The difference between the two is 2.2, and half of that is 1.1. I added that back to the 4.1.

So I used 5.2 minutes.

I would have waited a while for another Coldbore shot, but I had to get back. The weather there that day was what it normally would be, when I get a chance I will go back and shoot it again.
 
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Wind formulas assume equal amount of wind from shooter position to target. Breaking down sections from the rifle to the target can be tricky. The wind ALWAYS has more effect on the bullet closer to the muzzle when shooting across winds coming from the same direction.

I do most of my shooting in heavily treed mountains with large expanses of nothingness in the middle. The wind never blows the same speed for more than a minute or less. For your shot, I would have done much like you did, but from the position that the canyon is a full value 12-15 wind with the side I'm shooting from blocking a portion of it. I would pick the high or low number, and fire when the wind at my position matches the condition I picked. There is a large amount of SWAG in long range wind calls in the mountains. The river analogy is a good one. If the canyon is straight, with the prevailing wind blowing perfectly up or down it, wind shooting is relatively easy. If it curves, or has perpendicular ridges jutting out, or the wind is cutting across it at an angle, your call will have to be thought out more carefully.

Heavy opposing winds are very rare in the mountains. You are more likely to run into a wind running full value from one direction, and an opposing thermal coming from a slight or heavy angle, but in the opposite direction. If you are on a heavily treed hillside, it might feel like a wind coming from the right, but it is a swirl created by a basin above you bleeding down from a left wind in the canyon. I always look carefully at the target area to see if the wind direction is the same as where I'm shooting from. When I was with Ryan on the moose hunt one time, I watched the wind change directions on the side we wanted to shoot, while the wind stayed light and from the same direction where we were set up. Think back to the river analogy, comparing the wind to eddies and swirls running in the opposite direction of the current. In that case, I ignore the breeze where I'm at and shoot for the best estimate on the opposite hillside.

There are a couple of places I hunt that require me to ignore the wind at my position and shoot in the opposite direction (but only in May, and only when there is a low pressure system sitting on me!)

Every terrain feature and location is different. That's why they hang wind flags at ranges in intervals and the most competitive shooters keep notes on those particular wind flags and the shots they took. You can do the same without wind flags by practicing in the canyons you hunt. Remember to keep in mind your rifle's max potential accuracy at distance. If your hits are within that bubble ( 1/2, 3/4, 1 MOA, etc.), you are doing fine. Keep good notes!
 
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fire arrow
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Thanks for the info again. A river, shores an eddies is a good example to remember.

What kind of field log/book do you use. Right now I am just using a small note book. Was looking for something more specific to shooting/hunting (not a SWAT Tactical), and there are a ton out there. To many actually. Lots of info in them. Only problem is some seem to have too much info on them, and I have no idea what some of that stuff is too.
 
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Plain Rite in the Rain notebook stays in my pack. Handy for lots of stuff and hard to break it:)

I tried the formal data book route, but they work best when shooting at specific targets over and over and calling hits on them.

I note baro pressure, temp, sun position, wind speed and direction (including vertical wind). After you do this for awhile, distinct patterns start jumping out at you.
 

Broz

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I agree with Sam and will add a little. First off in most hunting situations we would not walk out closer to have found that 15 mph second wind. Unless we could stalk closer. But lets assume we didn't. Also I would assume since this was a canyon shot the wind at the rifle was not a constant. Most likely was an average 10 with some variance up at times. So I would, like I said, have been hugging the top of the average or even added a few for the longer shot. What firearrow did was a good plan. Look at both a 10 and 15 mph wind and see what that relates to in actual impact inches at 800. Example: my 300 win, 800 yards 10mph wind from 9:00 is a correction of 3.5 moa or 28" with the 15 it is 5.2 or close to 42". If we split the difference and hug the high side 13mph it is 4.5 moa or 36". From that 36" dialed correction I would have been left or right from 6 to 8" either way. I always aim for the crease behind the shoulder. With the fragmenting bullets I use a 6 to 8" either way would result in a filled tag I am pretty confident.

Now, lets try to do better than that. There are always indicators, sometimes more than others but if you look hard you will find some and with good practice, like firearrow was doing, you will increase your skill. I know that for 800 yards I will be dialing up 15 moa up. That is 15 x 8" at 800 for a top of bullet ark at 120" or 10 feet. If there are tree tops in that 10' above line of sight area 1/2 way I will be studying them pretty hard. Other indicator include vegetation, and trees at the target as well as steam coming from an animals nose, dust off hooves if they move, mirage, falling leaves, fog or snow drift, I love cotton wood seeds, etc. Practice will make all these things mean something to help you sharpen skills.

I don't want to imply I have the wind mastered. But I have a pretty good feel about knowing when to take or not take the shot. If I see enough to dial it in, I have no problem with taking a shot in the wind.

If needed a spotter shot can always be helpful too. I dial in elevation and windage. Send one and watch for the splash then put my crosshair right on the impact point of the miss. Count lines over to where I aimed, change my hold to allow for that correction and send the follow up as soon as I am solid. Works with any scope with a graduated reticle, SFP or FFP makes not difference what power you are on with either,,, What????? Unless you change power between the two shots. And why would we do that??? Not what you often read from the FFP guys but it is gospel TRUTH. As long as you are well versed at spotting your own shots. That's what good form and brakes are for. I can self spot, correct and send a follow up in less time than a spotter can give me a call and I process that info and correct for it. I always appreciate and welcome a spotter. But I also understand the importance and benefits of self spotting.

Now for what its worth. My .338 terminator for a 10mph FV at 800 would only be 2.7 moa and at 15 3.9 moa. so rounded to .25 moa scope clicks 2.75 to 4.0. The difference now is 1.25 moa or 10" total error split the difference for the 13 mph wind at 3.5 moa and I am .75 on one side or .5 on the other so impact should be about 4" either side of aim point. Do what Sam and I do and shoot when the observed wind is at the speed you dialed for and you will shave it even more.

Thus one of the many reason a good .338 rocks.

Hope this helps. Wind is the trickiest environmental condition we have to deal with. And the reason we need to practice on not so perfect days as well. Especially in places we plan to return to hunt.

Jeff
 
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^^^^What he said! I find it difficult to articulate how I go about making the shot, but Jeff is very good at it:)

Keep in mind that reading and shooting in the wind is part science and part art. Theories abound, especially on the Internet about long distance shooting. The ONLY way to really learn it is to do it...a lot!
 

TEmbry

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These threads are fun for me to read. I consider 100 yards long distance haha. No way I would have the shooting skill to drop an animal at 500+...
 

Broz

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I have posted this before, but it kinda fits in this discussion so I will post it here too. I was setting up my friend Mike with my rifle to take a bedded bull at 546 yards. He was facing away and all we had was rear neck and head. The kill quick zone in the neck is 5" wide or so. We had a switching and also varying wind at the rifle. We had strong mirage to watch and I know the wind below the ridge we were on was a swirling one. I narrowed it down to 2" either side of aim point. I dialed the scope in and we talked about perfect bullet placement to catch the spine. Knowing Mikes skill set was good I was confident. Even after the shot I was still confirming the data in my ballistic app to learn from all this. Watch the mirage in the video, listen to the changing wind sound on the camcorder mic. The bullet landed center spine , center neck.

The day before less than a mile away my son (who was filming this) took the largest bull from the heard (a good 6x6) from 815 yards with a 3/4 facing us shot to the neck. We simply waited for the bull to look back behind him and he put one through the neck and into the front shoulder.

It all works with practice and knowing when to NOT take the shot.

Jeff


[video=youtube;C9811oTNBxw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9811oTNBxw[/video]
 
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fire arrow
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Great shoot and video.

Looks like the mirage is horizontal coming from right to left, with periods of less winds that has the mirage going up to the left at a 45 degree angle?????
 
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