Wyoming Preference Points Question

[Jaeger62]

I wonder how much of a hit local restaurants and hotels would take.

Going to 90-10% would probably just cause me to cross Wyoming off my list of places I'd want to even try drawing tags to. The only reason I bothered with New Mexico NR elk tag this year was that we own some property in the Unit that I drew for.

The interesting part of all of this to me is that a lot of the land in these States that residents are claiming first rights to is Federal land that all of us pay for with taxes, etc. Now if it was ONLY the State lands that everyone wanted to claim 90-10% rights to, cool...... I do have somewhat of an issue having slim chances of hunting Federal lands that we all pay for. Unless I'm mistaken and only the residents of those States are paying for Federal lands, upkeep, etc.

It's an interesting debate and I can see lots of valid views from both sides.

 

[Jaeger62]

To the OP - You should count on an area requiring about 3x the number of points currently required by the time you draw imo. If starting now, a decent tag with a good amount of public land will likely take you 10 years to draw. That isn't a premium area but rather an area that takes 2-4 points currently. Premium areas will likely be 20+ year waits for someone starting now. Yes, you will be able to draw areas sooner than that but they will be primarily private land areas with limited to very limited public access.

Antelope permits will be available to non-residents in the future but a guy will just have to wait longer to get them. Doe tags are getting much harder to draw as well. That isn't going to change. That doesn't mean a guy should stop applying, you should just view the hunt with the right perspective. Enjoy the heck out of the tags when you do draw. Take a week vacation- see the sights, fish, camp etc. I agree with Buzz- 90/10 will eventually pass. It really won't change the antelope that much. There is already way more demand than supply so odds are getting tougher and points required will only continue to rise.

I'm 48 now, not going to waste my time trying for a Premium area lol.

I quit hunting for years in Texas because of how much the average guy got pushed out of the sport. Sadly it looks like that is how public land hunting for non residents is heading too.

There is pretty much 0 hunting deer hunting opportunity in Texas for anyone without above average money.

 

[Rich M]

First paragraph isn't true...at all. NR's get a metric shit ton of tags leftover from the resident draw that roll to the NR's in the initial draw. Thousands of tags actually.

I crunched all the numbers and going 90-10 for LQ elk, moose, sheep, goat and bison would decrease license revenue about $150k, a rounding error in an 82 million a year budget.

If we went 90-10 for everything it was about 1.4 million in lost revenue (a vast majority of which is NR LQ deer tags), but keep in mind the region deer tags would NOT change. The funding could be made up for by raising RESIDENT full priced licenses $10 each and raising the RESIDENT annual fishing license by $3.

Buzz - I go off here-say cause I'm not vested in the system or and only hunted WY once. Hoping for 1 more pass thru. I do know if I apply for a 1st and 2nd choice Antelope tag, the odds of drawing the 2nd tag are essentially non-existent due to the volume of 1st round applications.

The numbers you present aren't crazy.

Are they still proposing a certain portion of the NR 10% to go to outfitters?

It will pass sooner or later. I give it 2 or 3 seasons before it is implemented. Hopefully, I'll be done w antelope and out of the game by then.

It's getting difficult to hunt about anywhere and I'm about over it. Not my main driver in life - fun but if folks are gonna fight over stuff, I'll go fishing or play with the grand kids.

 

[BuzzH]

I wonder how much of a hit local restaurants and hotels would take.

Going to 90-10% would probably just cause me to cross Wyoming off my list of places I'd want to even try drawing tags to. The only reason I bothered with New Mexico NR elk tag this year was that we own some property in the Unit that I drew for.

The interesting part of all of this to me is that a lot of the land in these States that residents are claiming first rights to is Federal land that all of us pay for with taxes, etc. Now if it was ONLY the State lands that everyone wanted to claim 90-10% rights to, cool...... I do have somewhat of an issue having slim chances of hunting Federal lands that we all pay for. Unless I'm mistaken and only the residents of those States are paying for Federal lands, upkeep, etc.

It's an interesting debate and I can see lots of valid views from both sides.

If 10% of the tags means crossing states off your list...make sure you have a new sharpie loaded with ink.

Like I said, that would mean crossing pronghorn off your list in ID, MT, OR, CA, NM, AZ, CO, etc.

Land ownership and wildlife ownership are mutually exclusive, means ZIP with regard to tag allocations.

 

[Jaeger62]

If 10% of the tags means crossing states off your list...make sure you have a new sharpie loaded with ink.

Like I said, that would mean crossing pronghorn off your list in ID, MT, OR, CA, NM, AZ, CO, etc.

Land ownership and wildlife ownership are mutually exclusive, means ZIP with regard to tag allocations.

Sadly, it probably would mean crossing off antelope hunting.

By and large, I get it. I care less for me than I do the younger generations. Hopefully those who want to hunt are finding careers that pay well, because before long hunting is going to be a game for the wealthy. Already is in Texas.

 

[j_volt]

To echo what everyone has said... point creep, tag reductions, and potential changes in tag allocation all make this a moving target. Wyoming antelope points are a lot like money spent on rifles, each hundred dollars spent goes a lot less further in terms of value than the previous $100 spent. Sure, you probably want something better than a Remington 770 with a scope that is already "installed" (aka a zero point unit), but do you really need a Gunwerks (a max point unit)?

Here are some thoughts... the special draw is still worth the money as of now. We aren't getting any younger so spend the extra $$$ to have a better chance. Also, don't sleep on the random draw. I hunted the same unit in 2019 and 2020. I had the points in 2019 for the special draw, but I drew in the random with 0 points in 2020 with sub 20% odds. I shot goats in the high 70s on both hunts and I was able to look over dozens of bucks without feeling pressured by other people. It was a quality hunt both times (however, there were many more goats in 2019 than 2020).

There are trophy goats in every unit. Access is what changes the game. I don't worry about % of public too much. I just like to look at a unit on OnX and I feel that I can get a pretty good grasp if I will be bumping elbows with folks while waiting for an antelope to cross the fence, or if it will be a quality hunt where I can do my own thing.

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz - I go off here-say cause I'm not vested in the system or and only hunted WY once. Hoping for 1 more pass thru. I do know if I apply for a 1st and 2nd choice Antelope tag, the odds of drawing the 2nd tag are essentially non-existent due to the volume of 1st round applications.

The numbers you present aren't crazy.

Are they still proposing a certain portion of the NR 10% to go to outfitters?

It will pass sooner or later. I give it 2 or 3 seasons before it is implemented. Hopefully, I'll be done w antelope and out of the game by then.

It's getting difficult to hunt about anywhere and I'm about over it. Not my main driver in life - fun but if folks are gonna fight over stuff, I'll go fishing or play with the grand kids.

First question...second choice tags are getting tough for NR's.

But the way the draw works, any tags NOT drawn by Residents in the initial draw, drop to the NR pool in the same initial draw.

Meaning, that a boatload of tags drop to the NR pool in the initial draw, most of which are now going to NR's in a first, second, or third choice option...leaving very few leftovers.

What many Residents are pushing for rather than a 90-10 split, is for those tags leftover from the Resident initial draw, to be reserved for a second Resident only draw.

I can tell you, its going to be one or the other, either 90-10 or a Resident only second draw from the Resident allocation in the initial draw.

Residents want access, to at a minimum, their full 80% allocation...initial and second draw.

NO outfitter set asides...that won't fly in Wyoming.

 

[Laramie]

Sadly, it probably would mean crossing off antelope hunting.

By and large, I get it. I care less for me than I do the younger generations. Hopefully those who want to hunt are finding careers that pay well, because before long hunting is going to be a game for the wealthy. Already is in Texas.

You can still hunt public land deer in Texas. It's work, but it can be done.

Wyoming going to 90/10 isn't the reason tags are going to be harder to get. The internet and GPS have created this demand. Money isn't the controlling factor with western lands either. The cost of a tag vs average income levels isn't really much different than it was 20 years ago. It's simply a case of significantly more demand than there is supply.

 

[Jaeger62]

You can still hunt public land deer in Texas. It's work, but it can be done.

Wyoming going to 90/10 isn't the reason tags are going to be harder to get. The internet and GPS have created this demand. Money isn't the controlling factor with western lands either. The cost of a tag vs average income levels isn't really much different than it was 20 years ago. It's simply a case of significantly more demand than there is supply.

The quality of public land hunts in Texas really is not worth the effort. Honestly it's getting to the point where I hang up my stuff and just remember hunting for how it used to be. I had done that here at home..... drawing a NM elk tag for this year kinda lit the spark again and I'm trying to stay excited about it again.

The funny thing about all of this is talk to virtually every New Mexico resident and they're convinced that non residents draw at a far higher rate than 6%. I doubt that's true, but they are all positive that non residents are drawing higher than 6%. I did draw a non resident muzzle loader tag in a really nice Unit on my first try ever... and I have crap luck. So I also find it a huge stroke of luck that I draw a tag I had a 6% chance of drawing.

 

[npm352]

First question...second choice tags are getting tough for NR's.

But the way the draw works, any tags NOT drawn by Residents in the initial draw, drop to the NR pool in the same initial draw.

Meaning, that a boatload of tags drop to the NR pool in the initial draw, most of which are now going to NR's in a first, second, or third choice option...leaving very few leftovers.

What many Residents are pushing for rather than a 90-10 split, is for those tags leftover from the Resident initial draw, to be reserved for a second Resident only draw.

I can tell you, its going to be one or the other, either 90-10 or a Resident only second draw from the Resident allocation in the initial draw.

Residents want access, to at a minimum, their full 80% allocation...initial and second draw.

NO outfitter set asides...that won't fly in Wyoming.

Wyoming's version of "outfitter set asides" is much worse than most states. Instead of doing it with tags, you do it with public land...and your state refuses to even admit it is outfitter welfare.

According to WY, nonresident are too stupid to hunt without an outfitter without dying of exposure or being eaten by a bear.

WY has a lot going for it for NR, but as far as outfitter welfare, you are down there with the worst.

 

[Laramie]

The quality of public land hunts in Texas really is not worth the effort. Honestly it's getting to the point where I hang up my stuff and just remember hunting for how it used to be. I had done that here at home..... drawing a NM elk tag for this year kinda lit the spark again and I'm trying to stay excited about it again.

The funny thing about all of this is talk to virtually every New Mexico resident and they're convinced that non residents draw at a far higher rate than 6%. I doubt that's true, but they are all positive that non residents are drawing higher than 6%. I did draw a non resident muzzle loader tag in a really nice Unit on my first try ever... and I have crap luck. So I also find it a huge stroke of luck that I draw a tag I had a 6% chance of drawing.

I understand where you are coming from. Hunting is definitely changing everywhere. It wasn't so many years ago that I could drive to Wyoming and buy doe antelope tags, as a non-resident, at the hardware store the morning I wanted to hunt. If a guy wants to continue hunting, he will definitely need to adapt. Great experiences are still out there but they can't be counted on yearly. Cherish the tags you get and make the most of the experiences.

 

[BuzzH]

Wyoming's version of "outfitter set asides" is much worse than most states. Instead of doing it with tags, you do it with public land...and your state refuses to even admit it is outfitter welfare.

According to WY, nonresident are too stupid to hunt without an outfitter without dying of exposure or being eaten by a bear.

WY has a lot going for it for NR, but as far as outfitter welfare, you are down there with the worst.

Judging by this post of yours maybe its best that NR's aren't allowed in designated wilderness...

Wyoming has 18.4 million acres of public land, 3 million designated wilderness (that NR's CAN hunt without hiring an outfitter by having a Resident friend or family member).

If you can't find something to hunt on the 15.5 million acres you're free to roam...I don't know what to say.

For the record, you can thank WOGA for the wilderness guide law and nobody in Wyoming is denial about it being outfitter welfare.

 

[npm352]

Judging by this post of yours maybe its best that NR's aren't allowed in designated wilderness...

Wyoming has 18.4 million acres of public land, 3 million designated wilderness (that NR's CAN hunt without hiring an outfitter by having a Resident friend or family member).

If you can't find something to hunt on the 15.5 million acres you're free to roam...I don't know what to say.

For the record, you can thank WOGA for the wilderness guide law and nobody in Wyoming is denial about it being outfitter welfare.

Haha ... Well, you see Buzz, "for the record," there are some animals that like to live above 10,000 feet, and there are NR that would like to hunt them there without a guide or a resident to tag along.

I think NR have an easier time stomaching outfitter set asides for state tags over being told where they cannot hunt on federal public lands.

You wouldn't understand.

The point of the post was to point out that there is plenty outfitter welfare in WY.

 

[Laramie]

Haha ... Well, you see Buzz, "for the record," there are some animals that like to live above 10,000 feet, and there are NR that would like to hunt them there without a guide or a resident to tag along.

I think NR have an easier time stomaching outfitter set asides for state tags over being told where they cannot hunt on federal public lands.

You wouldn't understand.

The point of the post was to point out that there is plenty outfitter welfare in WY.

Coming from a non-resident who used to live, hunt, and guide in Wyoming-

I don't disagree with you in that the law is outfitter welfare. However, if that rule didn't exist, the draw odds for the areas you mention would change drastically for non-residents. You might get to hunt the areas once or twice in your lifetime if you were willing to save up a pile of PP.

Other states with transferrable landowner tags actually have a much greater impact on non-residents imo.

 

[ScottR_EHJ]

For people in that "a couple of points" group this is actually not a silver lining. As people with a lot of points "settle" for a lesser unit to burn their points they drive point creep in those units.

Point creep is inevitable, every unit is going to be different on the math but there comes a point where getting the top third of point holders out of the system or starting over will benefit the people in your situation. So say 20 hunters drop down into a an antelope unit that required 8 points last year. All of those hunters draw, in turn either taking them out of the system all together because they are over the game or now giving you the advantage because you will always be a couple points ahead of them. Point banking is one of the biggest drivers of point creep, withdrawing from the point bank by shooting for lower point units is overall good. Once a hunter goes down, you won't have to worry about them for several year.

Getting rid of the points only option might also be a solution but that will draw the ire of a lot of long term planners.

 

[BuzzH]

Haha ... Well, you see Buzz, "for the record," there are some animals that like to live above 10,000 feet, and there are NR that would like to hunt them there without a guide or a resident to tag along.

I think NR have an easier time stomaching outfitter set asides for state tags over being told where they cannot hunt on federal public lands.

You wouldn't understand.

The point of the post was to point out that there is plenty outfitter welfare in WY.

You have options...up to you if you choose not to use them.

 

[Laramie]

Point creep is inevitable, every unit is going to be different on the math but there comes a point where getting the top third of point holders out of the system or starting over will benefit the people in your situation. So say 20 hunters drop down into a an antelope unit that required 8 points last year. All of those hunters draw, in turn either taking them out of the system all together because they are over the game or now giving you the advantage because you will always be a couple points ahead of them. Point banking is one of the biggest drivers of point creep, withdrawing from the point bank by shooting for lower point units is overall good. Once a hunter goes down, you won't have to worry about them for several year.

Getting rid of the points only option might also be a solution but that will draw the ire of a lot of long term planners.

I follow your logic but disagree.

Guys banking points for area 57 or 61 antelope or 100 for elk have no impact on point creep in the 2-5 point units I like to hunt. Point creep is happening because of increased demand- they are simply more people wanting to hunt the west. TV hunting shows, magazines, sites like this one and Eastman's, and the internet in general are the real drivers of point creep. It is exponentially easier for a person East of the Mississippi to research and plan a western hunt than it was even 10 years ago.

 

[realunlucky]

Point creep is inevitable, every unit is going to be different on the math but there comes a point where getting the top third of point holders out of the system or starting over will benefit the people in your situation. So say 20 hunters drop down into a an antelope unit that required 8 points last year. All of those hunters draw, in turn either taking them out of the system all together because they are over the game or now giving you the advantage because you will always be a couple points ahead of them. Point banking is one of the biggest drivers of point creep, withdrawing from the point bank by shooting for lower point units is overall good. Once a hunter goes down, you won't have to worry about them for several year.

Getting rid of the points only option might also be a solution but that will draw the ire of a lot of long term planners.

The problem with this as the top point holders leave ie. The 20 people with 8 points they are instantly replaced with 40 or 50 people with 7 points. Now you have less tags than applicants so you get point creep. Real problem lays in the 6 point group isn't double it's triple or more so 120 people all the way down the line. If your on the bottom you have little to zero chance of catching those with even only a handful of points above you.

Also point calculators are only using previous data as started plenty of people buying points and not even applying so are never factored in. The rating of units of insta famous people naming units impacts draw odds in ways that hard difficult to predict.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

 

[realunlucky]

I follow your logic but disagree.

Guys banking points for area 57 or 61 antelope or 100 for elk have no impact on point creep in the 2-5 point units I like to hunt. Point creep is happening because of increased demand- they are simply more people wanting to hunt the west. TV hunting shows, magazines, sites like this one and Eastman's, and the internet in general are the real drivers of point creep. It is exponentially easier for a person East of the Mississippi to research and plan a western hunt than it was even 10 years ago.

I disagree eventually every sees that they have little chance to draw thier dream tag and cash out on lesser units driving the number of points to draw those up. The odds reflect that and now people waiting on those units will need to continue to wait or spend thier points on a less desirable unit. Driving point creep across board.

 

[WCB]

Depends on what a good quality buck to you is. A decently heavy 12-12.5 buck with decent cutters is a very nice looking animal for the wall and can be had for a point or two (not sure there is a 0 point unit still?).

Last year in a 1 point unit with terrible public access to antelope country I got my buddy on a goat that will go upper 70s to 80 inches. I killed a small buck (60") later that day as I wasn't going to be caught without my tag filled after the first day in that unit.

Now I wouldn't say it was a "good hunt" but scouting we did see a few other upper 60s to 70" bucks on public but opening morning when we shot my buddies we were already on option #5 as guys apparently pulled in during the middle of the night and slept in the ditch of the hwy in their vehicles to be the first ones into those pieces of public. A low point quality hunt is going to be very hard to have...but chance to shoot a quality buck from 1-3 points is there.