Wyoming proposal to slash Non-resident hunters

[BuzzH]

I get it, we all want cake. I asked you a couple questions to grab some clarity on where you stand personally and in regards to the BHA. You chose to answer some. It’s important to know where BHA and guys that are as involved as you are stand in this.

The overall tone from you and some residents borders on disdain for non residents. Just trying to see why ? We pay our share and most of us don’t mind paying more. I personally just want what I have bought into and consistency going forward that opportunity will still realistically exist.

I am not “sored up” by a non resident wanting more as you shouldn’t be about a non resident wanting his share also. We all have skin in the game. It’s figuring out what is the fair share.

No disdain for NR's at all...my NR family, friends, etc. hunt Wyoming all the time.

They just should be limited to 10% of the tags, that simple.

 

[Slugz]

Does someone have a slide that has all states and tags on one page for comparison?. Current day prices.

 

[BuzzH]

To BuzzH: I suspect applications have increased because there are more people with expendable income then there was 10 years ago(there is a growing number of richer people and there are more people that are willing to use a credit card) and also in the information age there are more that have learned that they can apply, travel and make it happen than there was ten years ago.
As I stated it will 'eventually' get to be a sport for the "Ultra Rich".
Lastly $600 for an Antelope - how much do you spend as a resident? How much would you spend? (At some point a person has to decide on that - it will be different for everyone - easier for someone with unlimited funds for sure)
I just want to keep hunting Wyoming and want to think that I can spend time hunting in Wyoming with my grandkids - reducing the number of tags(elk, deer, antelope) that already takes 7-10 years to draw is very depressing.

I always try to put myself into the other sides thought process or situation and the only reason i can see for this from a resident's standpoint is they cant handle the competition either from hunting or you can't draw a coveted tag. Lets be real if I told you that as residents you can have all the tags but you have to ante up the whole nonresident portion of the budget > you would lose most all the residents other than the ones that maybe had big homes in Jackson Hole.

You don't really want to know the answer to what I would pay for a pronghorn tag in Wyoming...you really don't. It would only cause you anxiety.

Lets just say, I don't bat an eye applying for pronghorn in CO, UT, NV, AZ, and MT...don't even look at the price of the tag or think twice about it.

Their lives are worth way more than $600 to me....can't really tell you much more than that.

 

[sholm]

Buzz - We all have priorities - mine personally are hoping that I can afford to or have the oppurtunity to pass the hunting traditions/experience onto my next generations and that they dont have to be ultra rich to be able enjoy that.

 

[Drelk]

How do Residents think this will help them? - maybe draw a LQ tag more often - possibly once more in there lifetime at current LQ quotas. There will still be the same number of hunters they are competing against only it will be a resident hunter that hunt & scout more days than a nonresident who is there for 5-7 days. It's not a reduction in tag numbers just where the competition comes from.
As for the cost increase - nothing in it makes sense to the average joe - compare it to other states if you want - they are all out of wack - it will only get worse if we think it's ok - it's on the path to only the ultra rich - if you think you can spend whatever : eventually you will have to make a decision.
I'm a non resident who has hunted Wy for 30 years, who has bought points and also given up on buying sheep and moose points, who will eventually give up on buying all points, who will eventually have to tell grandchildren that there isn't a chance to hunt in Wyoming because of the greediness of residents who can't seem to grasp who pays the bills or can't seem to handle the nonresident competition.

You my friend. Do not pay my bills. Nor, for any reason, are you entitled to the wildlife of Wyoming.

A 90/10 split is fair. It’s the status quo. It won’t pass as written, but it should.


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[BuzzH]

Buzz - We all have priorities - mine personally are hoping that I can afford to or have the oppurtunity to pass the hunting traditions/experience onto my next generations and that they dont have to be ultra rich to be able enjoy that.

Agreed, my priority is to do the same thing for Wyoming families over NR families...including, but not limited to, keeping 90% of the tags available to those Wyoming families.

 

[dukeball33]

On the topic of resident LQ tag prices, I’m guessing if residents had to pay current NR prices most would (just hasn’t come to that...yet). Most of these tags in question are not fill your freezer type tags, for R or NR. Doe/cow/general opportunity will be there for the foreseeable future, especially elk as most herds are over objective.

Goal posts are moved if this passes, which is the difficult aspect from an objective standpoint... however, game and fish quota adjustment for various other reasons could do the same thing. Points are troublesome but necessary if you want to have a chance in the future.

One last thing, NR emailing on behalf of WOGA... tell them you want access to wilderness before you hit the send button in opposition to this senate file!

 

[tdhanses]

If its only for the ultra-rich then why have NR applications across the board increased every year for deer, elk, and pronghorn in Wyoming for the last 10+ years then?

That many more "ultra wealthy" have taken up a new hobby?

Convince me that a buck pronghorns life isn't worth $600 so some NR can show up once a year for a couple days and put a bullet through one...

If a pronghorns life is worth $600+then why not push for equal tag prices across the board with your influence in WY, give 90% to residents at NR prices, like you said, it’s worth $600, so elk must also be worth $1100 to you as a resident. Also I doubt the majority of WY residents feel the same way about what the value of their resident wildlife’s life, you would price out all the lower income individuals if you could from what you’ve said and I get a feeling you could careless as long as you get what you want, maybe I’m wrong but you come off that way.

Truthfully the only hunting that’s expensive is NR hunting, resident hunting isn’t jumping fast in cost. Eventually there will be a ceiling people just won’t pay and will stop traveling to hunt, personally I doubt my kids generation continues hunting, it will fade away and be similar to Europe, eventually we’ll see that generation use public lands less with time and they will be sold off, just my assumptions based on the direction our country has been heading the last 20 years. Enjoy it while we can resident or not.

Personally I’ll still pay but just because I can, doesn’t mean another is fortunate enough to. Sad some kids will never get a chance if they don’t live in a state with vast amounts of wildlife, but don’t expect them to also want to fight for public lands in 20 years, they’ll be fine with national parks.

Also the states like WY and MT have a very low population base, they can’t keep public lands public without assistance from NR‘s when it’s up to Washington. The outdoors for today’s youth is in a video game, even if you get 10million hikers a year, that’s a minority of the population. Once the west loses the votes from the Midwest and East public lands will disappear and pushing out NR hunters just makes it that much easier as you’ll lose a voice outside of your area. If you feel NR don’t fight for public lands then why do you recruit members for BHA outside of the west? Why does RMEF have so many members in the Midwest and East coast? Just because people can’t have their feet on the ground doesn’t mean they can provide assistance.

Also if you want to be like every other state and with your pull why aren’t you pressing to allow NR to hunt wilderness? Get the outfitters off that gravy train and with only 10% NR hunting they won’t ruin your wilderness hunt.

 

[ozyclint]

You sure it's not 50 little United Countries instead of United States over there? From the outside looking in, it sure looks like it.

 

[sholm]

Drelk - No, I don't pay your local or state bills but I'm fairly certain unless your ultra rich that the tag fees and money I spend in Wyoming yearly are on par with the taxes you pay in Wyoming(you chose your state wisely). It's not to hard to find out that Wyoming is one of the best states to live - in regards to taxes..

I don't think you are any more entitled to the wildlife on federal lands (managed more by my dollar more than yours) than I am but that could be a different discussion. If I ever moved to Wyoming my mind would not change on this matter unless I was paying the 'whole' bill. In fact I would be arguing for more NR to come and help with the cost of the G&F and get more money injected into the local community.

90/10 split is 'fair' - detail how that is fair - only if your on the 90% side, enlighten me - we both pay federal tax, you pay Wyoming real estate tax(is it more than the amount I pay in tags, PP, app fees, convienence fees - Sheep, Moose, Elk, Antelope, Deer, for myself, spouse, grandkids ). You inject money into the community all year long - however you 'get/recieve' from that community all year long - I inject for 3 weeks and 'get/recieve' for 3 weeks. So in general I think neither are entitled to more than the other - however your getting 90%.

 

[tdhanses]

You sure it's not 50 little United Countries instead of United States over there? From the outside looking in, it sure looks like it.

Feels like it here at times as well.

 

[BuzzH]

If a pronghorns life is worth $600+then why not push for equal tag prices across the board with your influence in WY, give 90% to residents at NR prices, like you said, it’s worth $600, so elk must also be worth $1100 to you as a resident. Also I doubt the majority of WY residents feel the same way about what the value of their resident wildlife’s life, you would price out all the lower income individuals if you could from what you’ve said and I get a feeling you could careless as long as you get what you want, maybe I’m wrong but you come off that way.

Truthfully the only hunting that’s expensive is NR hunting, resident hunting isn’t jumping fast in cost. Eventually there will be a ceiling people just won’t pay and will stop traveling to hunt, personally I doubt my kids generation continues hunting, it will fade away and be similar to Europe, eventually we’ll see that generation use public lands less with time and they will be sold off, just my assumptions based on the direction our country has been heading the last 20 years. Enjoy it while we can resident or not.

Personally I’ll still pay but just because I can, doesn’t mean another is fortunate enough to. Sad some kids will never get a chance if they don’t live in a state with vast amounts of wildlife, but don’t expect them to also want to fight for public lands in 20 years, they’ll be fine with national parks.

Also the states like WY and MT have a very low population base, they can’t keep public lands public without assistance from NR‘s when it’s up to Washington. The outdoors for today’s youth is in a video game, even if you get 10million hikers a year, that’s a minority of the population. Once the west loses the votes from the Midwest and East public lands will disappear and pushing out NR hunters just makes it that much easier as you’ll lose a voice outside of your area. If you feel NR don’t fight for public lands then why do you recruit members for BHA outside of the west? Why does RMEF have so many members in the Midwest and East coast? Just because people can’t have their feet on the ground doesn’t mean they can provide assistance.

Easy answer, Residents live here all year, watch those pronghorn all year when they're huddled up behind a snow drift in 65 mph winds, migrating through fences, across highways, watch them starve, and appreciate what their lives are...and the value of that.

A vast, vast majority of NR's show up once a year, when pronghorn are in the best physical shape they'll be in, spend a day or three before sending a bullet or arrow through one.

Also, Residents fund nearly all of the NGO wildlife groups here. That funding puts millions of additional dollars into wildlife and on-the-ground projects. Nearly all the volunteer hours (valued at $26/hour) on wildlife work is done by Residents.

From having hunted dozens of times in 10 states as a NR, its much easier to cut a check once a year than what I put into wildlife in the State I live in, both in volunteer time and monetarily.

So, for those reasons, I believe I'm "paying" wayyyyy more $600 for a pronghorns life when I take one in Wyoming. Why I also feel NR's are getting off cheap with a $600 tag. Would be significantly easier and cheaper to just pay $600 for a pronghorn tag.

I also agree with you about public lands and hunting...it will be difficult to maintain long-term, but not as impossible as you make it sound. But, its not because of $600 NR pronghorn tags...to believe that, is as naive as it is ridiculous. Much deeper problems than that and not a rabbit hole I'm willing to head down.

Plenty of people from all over the place advocate for public lands, and I've never said otherwise.

None of which has anything to do with keeping 90% of the tags in the hands of Wyoming residents for the benefit of Wyoming families and their hunting traditions.

 

[dreamingbig]

Agreed, my priority is to do the same thing for Wyoming families over NR families...including, but not limited to, keeping 90% of the tags available to those Wyoming families.

Question - since you were born and raised in Montana are you guaranteed a tag on the come home home to hunt tags?

I only ask because having guaranteed tags in two western states, two of the best in my opinion, is a pretty spot to be addressing this from.

Oh and I am also curious why you won’t address the BHA questions. Just curious.


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[BuzzH]

Question - since you were born and raised in Montana are you guaranteed a tag on the come home home to hunt tags?

I only ask because having guaranteed tags in two western states, two of the best in my opinion, is a pretty spot to be addressing this from.

Oh and I am also curious why you won’t address the BHA questions. Just curious.


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First question, no, the come home to hunt tag is a drawing and not guaranteed. I do however qualify for the OTC native tag, at least as long as I have living family there. I buy the deer combo tag, but forgo elk even though it would only cost me an additional $200 to add the elk tag. The places I hunt elk, I could still kill a bull there, and did for the last several years I hunted elk in Montana. Grew tired of feeling guilty pulling the trigger on bull elk that didn't/don't have high enough populations to justify being killed. Not big into participating in that...

Deer where I hunt are doing better than the elk, but if not for having family there and wanting to hunt with my 2 young nephews, I wouldn't even buy the half price native deer tag. Its not that great of deal for me to have guaranteed tags in two states, and I don't even take advantage of the $200 elk tag.

Both programs are about the most ridiculous legislation to ever come out of the Montana legislature as far as NR tags are concerned. I opposed this legislation...and still do.

Your last question...BHA has nothing to do with the 90/10 legislation in Wyoming or the Montana Native licenses in Montana that I'm aware of. I don't think BHA even existed when the come home to hunt and Montana Native programs passed.

 

[Carlin59]

and just a few pubes to pick off the filter, no biggie

You are sadly spot on Robby. I spotted my first “wild” (non RMNP or 14er) mtn goat while soaking in the springs a dozen years ago, while enjoying the best dark liquor I could afford at the time. Confirmed I had landed in the terrestrial approximation of Heaven. The next morning packing out about 30 minutes after sunrise, I went down to the hot springs to snap a picture, only to find a dude floating in the middle by his lonesome, fully nude. He must have been hoping to catch the thermals for a morning sail, as he was ‘full mast’ above the water

 

[Spiral Horn]

Interesting topic. I was just chatting with a famous Utah outfitter the other day who sold me an Elk Hunt in a trophy unit 20 years ago. The deal was to give him a deposit, freeze the hunt price and I’d certainly draw the tag in 3-5 years. That was exactly 20 years ago and I’m still chasing that tag. Might draw it sometime within the next ten years, who knows.

Well, I could get upset about that but I’ve been applying in a number of western mountain states for decades. Over the years I’ve drawn a few Archery Muley and Antelope tags in a few mountain states including Wyoming and took some really nice bucks in places that certainly weren’t trophy units. While waiting to draw also did a bunch of research and routinely hunted whatever species wasn’t currently in vogue both here and abroad. There are some great hunts to discover if one puts in the research time and remain open to travel. Had some wonderful adventures and checked off quite a few critters from my bucket list. But now there’s a new problem. I have a ton of points and might actually be able to draw some tags.

Been in the western state draw system for ages and witnessed non-res tag opportunities steadily diminish while prices increase. The beginning of the end were systems and newsletters which demystified the application process and channeled everyone to apply for the same tags, combine this with the internet and the applicant pool skyrocketed. This also impacted resident hunters who can directly impact in-state politicians, making non-residents a convienient scapegoat. Further limiting non-res access does nothing to improve long term hunting quality or wildlife resource management, but it makes a good headline in the local paper. It will also further isolate the state from the broader hunting community. At some point big $ contributors to SCI, etc will firmly begin challenging why they are spending so much money continually defending assaults on hunting in those states when only residents benefit. It would be ironic if the same folks leading the charge to push out non-residents out end up paying $500-$1000 for in-state tags down the road.

I suspect the non-res plight will only worsen in the short term. So, I’m currently developing a plan to cash in my points for the best hunts available, state by state, before some genius decides the system is just too broken and they will go to a completely random drawing, no longer honoring accumulated preference points for non-residents.

 

[Dos Perros]

When one inspects the actual ratio of tags per resident this whole thing can only be interpreted as greed.

 

[LostArra]

Even with a 90/10 split there will be plenty of unhappy residents when:
1) they still don't draw the tag they wanted
2) a non-resident truck is parked at "their" trail head.

 

[Matt mi]

I've only made it out west once and that was last year. Was finally in a place where I could afford to buy the gear buy the tags the gas and have a vehicle that would make it that far and back. I live in michigan.
I have been dreaming my whole life about screaming bull elk runnin the mountains the way bob Munger had told me stories of. I can remember being in his house and of all the animals from all over the world he had in there those elk antlers and stories stood out to me the most.
I went to idaho for my elk hunt, first time I ever saw the Rockies was amazing to say the least
Such a wonderful site. The first week I dont think my mouth closed. We did not get an elk but were very close and were on elk 12 of the 18 days. And I thought whitetail were smart about the wind! I didnt get to experience the bulls screaming they were real quite some chuckles and moans did hear a lot of the cows talking and had one bull at 1am come up to the tent and scream a bugle like I had always imagined seeing them do.
I can understand the 10% of tags for nonresident, residents should be able to hunt the their state every year without the threat of not getting a tag but the prices of the tags for nonresident going up is what is crazy the amount of money just to get there and back for me was more then the tag its self.
Are the states animal populations that bad like buzz says (in montana) that he feels guilty shooting one because there isnt enough animals? If that is the case maybe something should be said about the game management. Hopefully it doesn't get that bad with populations of game animals.
If all of the residents of Wyoming cant get a tag maybe they should go resident tags only and then make it once in a lifetime bull tag and every 10yrs for cow tags so every resident has a chance to harvest an elk.
That's the way it is in michigan we dont even give me tags but our state cant handle the 1800 or so elk we have not enough room for them. I would love to shoot an elk some day not sure I would have much fun in michigan the way you hunt them here but wouldn't pass up the elk meat if I ever do get a tag from here.
I'm just very appreciative that the states out west allow me to come hunt their state but with the prices going up its probably not in my future to go back

 

[Dos Perros]

I've only made it out west once and that was last year. Was finally in a place where I could afford to buy the gear buy the tags the gas and have a vehicle that would make it that far and back. I live in michigan.
I have been dreaming my whole life about screaming bull elk runnin the mountains the way bob Munger had told me stories of. I can remember being in his house and of all the animals from all over the world he had in there those elk antlers and stories stood out to me the most.
I went to idaho for my elk hunt, first time I ever saw the Rockies was amazing to say the least
Such a wonderful site. The first week I dont think my mouth closed. We did not get an elk but were very close and were on elk 12 of the 18 days. And I thought whitetail were smart about the wind! I didnt get to experience the bulls screaming they were real quite some chuckles and moans did hear a lot of the cows talking and had one bull at 1am come up to the tent and scream a bugle like I had always imagined seeing them do.
I can understand the 10% of tags for nonresident, residents should be able to hunt the their state every year without the threat of not getting a tag but the prices of the tags for nonresident going up is what is crazy the amount of money just to get there and back for me was more then the tag its self.
Are the states animal populations that bad like buzz says (in montana) that he feels guilty shooting one because there isnt enough animals? If that is the case maybe something should be said about the game management. Hopefully it doesn't get that bad with populations of game animals.
If all of the residents of Wyoming cant get a tag maybe they should go resident tags only and then make it once in a lifetime bull tag and every 10yrs for cow tags so every resident has a chance to harvest an elk.
That's the way it is in michigan we dont even give me tags but our state cant handle the 1800 or so elk we have not enough room for them. I would love to shoot an elk some day not sure I would have much fun in michigan the way you hunt them here but wouldn't pass up the elk meat if I ever do get a tag from here.
I'm just very appreciative that the states out west allow me to come hunt their state but with the prices going up its probably not in my future to go back

Wyoming residents can get an elk tag at Walmart whenever they want. And a Region G deer tag.