tipi/hybrids and options question

[Runningwater]

Am looking into trying my first floorless hot tent. Looking hard and torn between a Redcliff or a 6 or 8 man tipi. Probably most of the time would be 3 hunters (say 50%), with 25% chance of 2 and 25% chance of 4. Roughly 1/3 trips would be backpacking in, 1/3 walking in pack horses, and 1/3 truck/trailhead camp. Would be interested in folks with experience recommendations. How feasible is it for 2 people to backpack the 8 man with stove a moderate distance (5-7 miles)?

Related question, both from cost and weight perspective - are folks ordering and using the screen doors and liners? It seems to me (but I have no direct experience) that the screen doors might have limited value in that if I'm running a floorless tent with the edges up a bit that to some extent you are going to get bugs even with a screen? So if its buggy bring a bivy with a screen or a headnet? How valuable are the liners in snow or wet conditions - a requirement or can you manage around it via tent set-up? How much value is say, an SO SXL stove vs. a large, given a 1/2 pound weight increase?

Thanks for thoughts/opinions - the hand wringing and over-analysis over what to get is half the fun! My apologies if this has all been discussed to death already...

 

[Netherman]

I'm in a similar situation and am about 90% sold on a SO Redcliff with a LiteOutdoors 18" stove or DIY with a similar design. The majority of my use will be with me, my buddy, and a stove. We plan occasionally hunt with one or both of our brothers and in those instances where 4 plus a stove is needed our plan is to bring my brothers BA 3 person tent for the additional two and the Redcliff as the warming/drying tent. With this plan we could probably get away with a Cimarron and save 1.5lb and $213 but lose a good chunk of space and flexibility with either 3 hunters or 4 without a stove.

Regarding screen doors I agree with your assessment that when they would be a benefit is the same situation you would raise the bottom and give them another entry point. I plan to buy a bivy to contain my pad and bag. From that experience I'll see if a nest is something that interests me. For Liners I'm planning to take the same wait and see approach. From what I have read they either you raise some part of the edge, have liners, or deal with condensation. My plan is to raise an edge and see how bad it gets if I have to "batten down the hatches".

For stoves it seems tough to beat the cylinder stoves. They are more economical compared to the SO stoves and seem to be lighter with longer burn times. Unless you plan to boil water/cook on your stove regularly I think the cylinder is the way to go. From a design perspective I think the LiteOutdoors 18" ($255) is tough to beat. A few things I really like is their large door, damper design, attachment rods (same as TiGoat), and baffle option. Two other cylinder stoves that seem to get pretty good reviews are the TiGoat 16" ($265) and Kifaru Smith 18" ($284) stoves.

I think writing all of this down moved me from 90% to 100% on the Redcliff and 18" cylinder stove. I'm going to look at some DIY stove threads and see if that route makes more financial sense. Initially I was looking at the Cimarron, TUT, Redcliff, and Sawtooth.

Nick

 

[Runningwater]

I'm probably a slight lean to going bigger with an 8 man since most times I'm not backpacking, but certainly not decided yet. Especially if I don't need to consider the weight of the screen or liners. I plan to also use the stove to cook, and we tend to enjoy actual cooking when we have the time/weight as opposed to just boiling water for FD, so I'm leaning toward the box stove. I know you can cook on the cylinders, but I can't imagine the heat transfer could be very efficient. I'll bet the 18" deep is nice though in less wood processing and stove filling.

I know if 2 of us are going to pack in the 8 man, that I'll be quite motivated to lose the 10 lbs of excess weight around my waste!

 

[MontanaMarine]

At different times I've had Seek Outside BT-2, Silvertip, 4, 6, and 12.


My general advice would be to pick the larger of what you are considering, unless weight/price are critical.

 

[Fire_9]

You're going to have a hard time running 4 guys with a stove in the 6 man. 3 and a stove fit pretty comfortably with no gear inside. Liners can help big time but I've never tried setting mine up off the ground so I can't speak to how effective that is. Mine doesn't leave the house without at least a half liner though

 

[mfllood3800]

I have the redcliffe and have done 3 with gear no problem
4 would be tight, but doable, gear would have to be kept orderly and wood stored outside.

I usually hunt alone and like my space. When more guys are crammed in there it becomes tighter, so much so I wouldn't try 4 guys and gear in the redcliffe. 3 is totally doable with just a nights worth of cut wood, 2 is perfect 1 is a castle.

 

[Runningwater]

thanks everyone. So maybe try the combo (8 man/stove/half liner) and get a half liner to play with? What weather conditions create the worst condensation - humid/rain, cold, snow load? Anybody glad they have a screen door or wish they would have gotten one? I think I'm talking myself into the 8. My days of long backpacks trips are probably mostly behind me. If I'm backpacking in its probably going to be more in the 5 mile range or so - and for that it seems (as I hit here at my desk and not on some switchback with my thighs on fire) that packing the 8 man in for a base camp for 2 folks would be doable. All the other times (more than two, horse support, truck camping) the 8 clearly seems like the choice. One down side my be finding a piece of ground to pitch a 16' circle though!

 

[oldgoat]

I bought screen doors and liner when I bought my Sawtooth 3 years ago, still haven't used the screens but I have them if I ever want to take them along, but don't use this shelter generally when bugs are bad. I finally used the liner this last elk season and will never use the shelter without them again. They do a couple things, cut down on condensation and they also make the shelter cooler in direct sun, the white material reflects the sun.

 

[Beendare]

I get what you are trying to do....one shelter for multiple applications.


Easy to get one that does 2-3 guys well...but to go 4 you really need a pretty big shelter. I've had 3 and the stove in my homemade 13' dia tipi and it wasn't bad- 4 would be a nightmare. My guess is its apx the same with the cimmeron except you lose a little floor space with that design- it will fit 2 great. The tipi style is excellent size to weight ratio....and they are strong as hell.

The steeper sided shelters like the dome style tents give you more floor space...but get heavy for 4 people. The hybrids like the Sawtooth seem to max out usable space for the weight.

Sorry to give you the bad news bro....sounds like you may end up like the rest of us with multiple tents in the garage- grin

 

[mfllood3800]

I was in the same boat a couple years back. Mostly solo hunting. But had a nephew who would come out and want to hunt. Then I had a friend here with his 2 sons who wanted to maybe come along.

I was torn. Trying to get a tipi for me and my needs which would be 80-90% of the time, but also wanted to accommodate the 10-20% other times.
Then I thought.
I can get what I wanted, and if more came than I could squeeze in, they would just have to bring their own tent.

It's nice when the magic happens and you find a piece of gear that is a universal fits all situations.
That is rare.

Get the tent that fits the need that is most often going to happen.
Anything after that- let everyone pitch in and figure it out.

I am glad I got the Redcliffe (3-6). Is it big for 1 person ? Yep !
But I am good with that cause the next couple sizes smaller aren't that much lighter any way- so I opted for the bigger one.
But the 8 man was way to much for me for 80% of my needs.
At some point, the other guys have to step up to the plate too.

 

[Skeeter]

I have a SO 8-man and an LBO+3, and I have stoves from both SO and Lite Outdoors. For 4 adults and a stove, I would not want smaller than an 8-man. I will echo some of the sentiments from the post above by saying that I prefer not to try an get everyone in one large shelter, by rather have multiple small shelters. I guess I just prefer some privacy and personal space when I sleep. I someone wants, they can buy and bring along the connecting LBO tarp, and it could convert to a 3 (or more) plus stove shelter. I can carry the LBO+3 and medium stove and use a trekking pole hitch and have a nice spacious heated solo shelter at a little over 4 lbs. A little more weight, but not bad. Even if you split up a large shelter and stove everyone would still have 2-3 lbs. Just a personal preference.

For stoves I can say good things about both the SO and LO stoves. Still playing with both, but my friend prefers the LO with baffle, while I think I prefer the SO design. With the LO baffle, I do think we are seeing a little longer burn times. There is some smoke escape when you open the door, but it’s not as bad once the stove really heats up and starts drawing good. One thing I don’t care for is that the stove body starts to dent inward where the pipe enters. This occurs even if the rods are tensioned properly and the damper handle is resting on the rods to support pipe weight. So far it seems to just be aesthetics. The SO stove is more robust with a little more weight. It seems to hold its shape better with less warpage. I like the flat cooktop, and I like that the damper and ultra spark arrestor are separate fittings from the pipe. The SO stove has fewer parts and, at least for me, seems to go together a little quicker.

 

[Runningwater]

thanks for the help/advice. Its getting me thinking of a couple options. (1) get the Redcliff, and with bigger groups bring more tents/tarps/tipis (even though that isn't as efficient weight wise), and for most times with 2 people truly backpacking I'd likely run without the stove (those are most often late summer/early fall goat/sheep scout trips or archery elk) which would make it a very reasonable pack weight. (2) get the big tipi and enjoy the space anytime we have 3 or more, and get a nice tarp or 4 person tipi for the non-stove 1/2 person scouting trips.

For those of you with a Redcliff. If you had two people sleeping in it and others in little tents or tarps but had a weather day, if you stack the sleeping gear how many folks can comfortably "hang out" in the Redcliff on little tripod stools around the stove and drink coffee, eat, bullshit, dry some crap out?

How big an issue is finding a footprint spot for a 16ft circle 8 man vs a 10x14 Redcliff?

 

[mfllood3800]

As far as guys/gals hanging out and waiting out a storm in a Redcliffe: If we stacked our packs - pads and such and hung out - no reason you couldn't get 6 no problem, in there on chairs.

As far as a foot print location- this is too vague of a question with out knowing the area. But the bigger a tent,the more people in that tent and then it's more critical to find an area w/o grass under you. Perhaps finding a big enough area isn't the whole battle, but finding a big enough area with out grass to help reduce condensation is key. Both options are harder than a small 2 man tent when in timber and wind fall areas. Obviously the smaller the print the easier finding a spot will be.

 

[mfllood3800]

Redcliffe - $730 @ 5 lbs
8 man- $920 @ 7 lbs
6 person tipi $800 @6 1/2 lbs

For me getting space for 1 more guy using the 8 man, maybe 2 more at the most, at a 2 lb penalty and $200 differences wasn't worth it to me.
Also the 6 man tipi was $70 more than the Redcliffe and 1.5 lb penalty.

But the real reason I went with the Redcliffe was its rectangular foot print, yet still a tipi shape.
This means I can set this thing up by quickly finding and staking my 4 corners and running my center pole up, and I am out of the weather quicker than messing with some of the more complicated foot prints.

And I can host a couple more guys, any more than that and they just have to have their own tent/tarp, but are always welcome to hang out and dry out some gear.

 

[mfllood3800]

There are also other guys on here who build shelters, Perhaps check with them
William Hanson (Live2hunt)
Pods8

These are 2 I know of.

Sometimes they may or may not build a similar type to what is already offered out there.
But, reach out and ask.?

 

[Runningwater]

And it looks like, but I'm not certain, that fair chunk of the weight difference is that the Redcliff comes with a carbon pole as standard and the tipis don't?

 

[flinginairos]

Interested in this info as well. Trying to make the same decision lol.

 

[Skeeter]

I don’t have the Redcliff, but if I was only getting one shelter to cover everything from solo to 4 people it would probably be top of my list.

 

[mfllood3800]

I believe the carbon pole saves around 11 oz's.

Still for the weight I found that the Redcliffe was the most universal w/o the biggest penalty one way or another.
2 doors allows multiple hunters to enter/exit w/o tripping over each other (as much lol)
It allows air flow in hotter temps, smokey situations and digestive processes after mountain house for a week.

 

[rbljack]

I have the Sawtooth. When I bought it, I also purchased the screen door option. Nothing against it, but quite honestly I haven't even used it. This year prior to hunting season, I decided to purchase the liner kit. I installed it into my sawtooth and tied everything in. My plan is to just leave it in there all the time because I would not want to mess with tying that in every time I set up the sawtooth. The set up is a bit heavier, and a bit bulkier, BUT...because I use a down bag, I feel the added insurance against condensation was worth it.

The sawtooth is good for two people...and my thought is to split the load. One of us carry's the stove, Tyvek ground cloth, and pole and stake kit, the other carries the sawtooth and liners. I currently have the kifaru medium box stove, but keep eyeing up lighter options.

Not sure if this helps in your decision about the shelters, but I only wanted to provide info related to me. All that being said, I haven't used my sawtooth with the liner in yet. I was in a base camp situation this year, and didn't have to use the sawtooth. But it came with me on the trip just in case. I have used the sawtooth and like it, just haven't camped with the liner in yet.

To fit your situation, 2 sawtooths with stoves might work well so you can tailor the camp to the people going. As mentioned above, another thing to consider: footprint. Finding a place to set up larger tipi's in the backcountry could present a problem depending on your hunting area, and terrain.

I want to mention that I am by no means an expert with the floorless. Relatively new to it myself, but so far, I have enjoyed being able to walk into the sawtooth with my boots on. Being able to stand up has been great also! I can cook inside the shelter. The liner investment will provide me some piece of mind if the weather turns. That's where I'm at so far in the floorless journey. Good luck in your decisions.