Age Class

[idahohikker]

Friends, do you ever find a better age class in areas that are not real wide open and glassable? I have had several biologists mention that when discussing two different units with respect to vulnerability of animals in one area versus another. In my experience I've seen that this phenomenon exists. However, it has to be somewhat of a middle ground. Too heavily timbered and deer are just really hard to see and may have food limitations making them pretty scarce.

What I find is that some areas are more walk and glass type places rather than picking just one high vantage point and staying because it's smallish glassable pockets within a larger timbered landscape that are close enough to hit 2-5 in a morning or evening. Obviously you have to be real careful anytime you're moving not to be spooking all nearby game.

Practically speaking I prefer relativity open terrain like many people. This opens up some opportunity with timbered areas where people can't employ long range glassing and let their Swaros find the game while the guy is sitting on a pad drinking coffee, drapped in a quilt.

Thoughts? Maybe Robby will weigh in as he often does on the deer forum. Robby, I hope you have fun today with your boy!

 

[sagebuster]

Take a look at page 177 in Robbie's book. See where that guy is glassing? The biggest godawful tangle in the known universe. That's where the big boys hide out. You'll find an exception maybe once or twice in your lifetime. But if you want to get up on big bucks regularly during the prime October season, you are gonna have too work that kind of cover.

 

[idahohikker]

ttt never received much of a response on this. I'm still pondering on this question and I've talked to some biologists about it. They have noted that open country increases vulnerability. One biologist noted that a unit has different terrain and the northern bit is heavily timbered and has been found to have a better age class.

I hunted some open country this year for elk and saw tons of deer but the age class was pretty poor. Fantastic habitat. It made me think of this again.

Thoughts?

 

[Jimss]

Muley age is a matter of bucks surviving several hunting seasons. I classify a mature muley buck as 6 to 8+ years of age. Obviously to survive 6 to 8 hunting seasons it is a matter of super steep, rough, isolated country to hide them (Region G in Wyo) and/or a super limited number of tags or hunting pressure (private land). Region G is a general unit for Wyo res and gets pounded by monster muley hunters each year. Bucks mature in that setting due to some of the steepest and deepest canyons in the country.

Some of the biggest bucks in the entire nation get harvested in the Eastern Plains of Colorado each year where there are 0 trees and open rolling hills! How do they survive? Relatively few tags and around 98% private property that limits access. Other units in Western Colo have a long history of producing older age bucks where there are steep, isolated patches of dark timber. Old age bucks hang out from archery season through the late rifle seasons and often don't expose themselves until the rut kicks in.

 

[idahohikker]

Another interesting factor is population density. It can work in two ways-areas with lower population densities are often less attractive for the general hunter population. With this decreased pressure, bucks have a greater chance of growing older. Alternatively, areas with higher animal densities have more bodies on the ground and so even with some taken out there are more older bucks presumably due to the population. Ultimately, it probably comes down to a calculation of pressure and population size.

 

[Nickofthewoods]

One of my most productive Mule Deer spots over the years has been a heavily wooded mountain with minimal glassing opportunities but is completely surrounded by private land and other public land that doesn't permit hunting. There are some real bruisers in there and other people generally don't hunt it because it's not a great looking place to hunt. Even I don't really like hunting there to be honest but my hunting partners and I are almost at 100% success rate in the 10 years or so that we have been there, and it isn't a difficult to draw trophy unit. Like the Eastern Plains of CO mentioned above, this area is dominated by private land but unlike East CO, is heavily forested which makes a good recipe for big bucks, it just isn't as fun of a hunt to me. I much prefer to glass and spot/stalk than drive around roads and still hunt thick timber but our success rate and solitude there can't be ignored.

 

[idahohikker]

One of my most productive Mule Deer spots over the years has been a heavily wooded mountain with minimal glassing opportunities but is completely surrounded by private land and other public land that doesn't permit hunting. There are some real bruisers in there and other people generally don't hunt it because it's not a great looking place to hunt. Even I don't really like hunting there to be honest but my hunting partners and I are almost at 100% success rate in the 10 years or so that we have been there, and it isn't a difficult to draw trophy unit. Like the Eastern Plains of CO mentioned above, this area is dominated by private land but unlike East CO, is heavily forested which makes a good recipe for big bucks, it just isn't as fun of a hunt to me. I much prefer to glass and spot/stalk than drive around roads and still hunt thick timber but our success rate and solitude there can't be ignored.

Thanks for sharing. Great illustration. How do you find animals so frequently in that heavily timbered country? Are you getting good at still hunting or are there a lot of animals?

 

[Nickofthewoods]

There are a lot of deer that move through this area. The private land on either side has good feed and water so it's highly traveled as the deer go back and forth. These deer are also virtually unpressured due to so much private land around so I don't have to be a fantastic still hunter, which I am certainly not.

 

[Macegl]

In my part of the world areas with thicker cover definitely hold older age class deer as long as they aren't so thick that theres no feed. I am trying to learn to hunt these areas, but it can be extremely frustrating.

I used to hunt some remote, steep, rugged, big canyons that were relatively open. Most of them are 800-1000 yds across. Before improved rangefinder's and dialing scopes and ballistic app's became the norm, older age class bucks were relatively common, but to get one was very difficult. The last ten years as long range hunting has become increasingly popular, I have watched the age class drop off and now a 4.5 year old buck is considered "old".

I think this will only become more pronounced as more and more hunters enter the long range world.

 

[Jimss]

I would guess that a lot of the long range "shooters" are "missers!" Mature bucks that get shot at from long range get spooked when missed with multiple long range shots! My guess is that modern day bucks are spending less and less time in open areas where they are harassed by long range "missers!" In the good ole days there were very few hunters that attempted shots over 450 yards so bucks weren't harassed and spooked at long range like they are today. Hunters that took their time and got quality shots at less than 400 yards were often successful. Just because there are more guys shooting longer range shots doesn't necessarily mean there are fewer mature bucks available? I guess it comes down to how many long range shooters can actually connect vs spook bucks with missed shots,....and how many mature bucks actually spend time in open country where they can be shot?

 

[Macegl]

I know a lot of the guys that hunt the area I was referring to. Alot of them aren't missing.

The decline in buck numbers and age class I have observed, has occurred over multiple years and has primarily been on summer scouting trips prior to the season and after the season during the rut. So, I don't feel it is due to deer being spooked, but I could be wrong.

I try not to base my opinion on what I see during the season, as there are a lot of factors that influence deer behavior and visibility in such a short window of time.

 

[S.Clancy]

We've killed 10-15 bucks between 5.5 and 10 yrd old (he was gnarly looking). We don't hunt wide open spots, but a lot of mixed cover. The more open, the farther we generally have to go for older deer. I would say the majority of those deer were 3 miles minimum from any road, farthest was over 6. So I would agree with you.

 

[Wapiti1]

I've done most of my mule deer hunting in MT. Yes. Thicker country produces better deer, in my experience. That said, it also heavily depends on where they winter and if hunters can get to them during the rut. My best bucks came from lower mountain country with heavy timber. I have hunted some big deer in open country as well, but have a similar take as Clancy. You have to work harder for them there.

You also have to consider the time of year and if the elk and deer are at the same level. Archery season, they usually are not. The elk are much lower than the old bucks. It is pretty snow and then rut dependent from there as to where the deer are. I've shot them at the top in 2 feet of snow the week before Thanksgiving, and other years they were all low in the foothills.

Jeremy

 

[Jimss]

There's a lot more to bucks maturing to a ripe old age than long range shooting. Overall tag numbers, winterkill, predators, season dates (outside the rut), etc have a great deal to do with how many years a buck can survive the gauntlet!

If long range hunters are truly influencing the number and age class of bucks that survive in a particular unit than hunter numbers could be reduced and/or season structure (length and timing) could possibly be changed if older age class is important?

 

[idahohikker]

I've done most of my mule deer hunting in MT. Yes. Thicker country produces better deer, in my experience. That said, it also heavily depends on where they winter and if hunters can get to them during the rut. My best bucks came from lower mountain country with heavy timber. I have hunted some big deer in open country as well, but have a similar take as Clancy. You have to work harder for them there.

You also have to consider the time of year and if the elk and deer are at the same level. Archery season, they usually are not. The elk are much lower than the old bucks. It is pretty snow and then rut dependent from there as to where the deer are. I've shot them at the top in 2 feet of snow the week before Thanksgiving, and other years they were all low in the foothills.

Jeremy

Good points. Only Montana is crazy enough to have general season deer hunts in November. In other states at least most bucks are protected then.

 

[S.Clancy]

Good points. Only Montana is crazy enough to have general season deer hunts in November. In other states at least most bucks are protected then.

Yea. Some areas of the state close the 13th or 15th of November, but the open plains (mainly R7) is open all year. Finding a 5+ yr old buck there takes work and luck. I wish they would at least turn some units into OTC archery during the rut instead of the buck genocide they have now.

 

[The Ri Guy]

I can only speak for a HEAVILY pressured unit in Washington state, but the thicker and steeper the sh*t, the bigger the bucks, absolutely.

I don't think I've ever seen a mature buck out in the open unless he was busting out or already dead.