Alaska Range Dall Sheep: My First Sheep Hunt

[Yellowknife]

So can anyone just use the cabin as it is on public land or he has an exclusive lease on it so no one else is allowed to land there?

Like most guides, he has a 10 year lease from DNR on his base camp. They are nominally "1 acre", but the exact dimensions are never specified, and big operations usually push the bounds a bit. The lease has to state the use, type of structures, etc of the proposed operation in the lease application, and as I recall is subject to a $2/visitor-day fee. For a big addition, like a new cabin, it would usually need to be amended. If the lessee fails to pay the annual fees or renew his application, the land (and any improvements) technically returns to the state and is available to anybody willing to pick up the lease.

The runway isn't included in the lease, but traditionally is considered to be "owned" by the guide also. It would be hard to talk an air charter outfit into dropping you off at an established camp.

Yk

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

Thanks YK. I was just wondering, not that I was going to have any for hire plane drop me off there to hunt or camp. That would be rude and not at all how I operate. I was just wondering more generally about any AK residents that would have a plane and want to fly in there. I am sure that it would be poor form and inconsiderate but I did not know if it would be "legal". I assume that he would be in the camp about the entire season hunting so perhaps it would be some time out of season that others may have the opportunity to drop in and visit.
There was some chatter in the camp about a Super Cub that was "not welcome" that was new in the area first time it had been seen. It landed somewhere nearby and was dropping off hunters in a difficult to access stretch. They had the tail number off the plane and looked it up. They believed it was the son of a doctor or lawyer (I don't remember which) flying the plane and shuttling friends/hunters around. Perhaps it was crowding them or getting into a spot that they wanted to go?

 

[Shrek]

JOMS , if you read some of the minutes of the BOG meetings you will see that Shankster and the rest are crying about air taxis dropping off hunters in "their areas" . They want only registered transporters to be able to ferry hunters. This desire is based in the ability to control the smaller group of transporters by locking them out of the outfitters if they take hunters anywhere the outfitters don't want them. Taxis and the proliferation of private planes is making it impossible for the outfitters to control large swaths of public land.

 

[Daniel_M]

Shriek it's been that way for a while and not just in the Alaska Range. Several other outfits cater solely to the guide camps, refusing to fly in Joe-Harvest off the street.

 

[Shrek]

The desire of outfitters to control public access to public land iis nothing new or local to Alaska. All over the west outfitters , large land owners , ect have resisted corner crossing laws , lease unsuitable land to deny access to public land , purchase small pieces to cut off access to large public blocks of land , harass and vandalize hunters and their property left at parking access. In the end the outfitters will poison themselves out of business. As the public land hunting community continues to grow they will look to access places where the outfitters have been able to get away with controlling. Many people are moving west and to Alaska that have their own wealt and power that is in no way dependent on the ranching or hunting industry and their voices will soon drown out the interest of the few in state legislatures.

 

[R Miller]

Thanks for sharing, what a sh!t show.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

When I was in camp it was not an air taxi or transporter who was nearby. My outfitter was ticked because it was a young pilot maybe taking friends or family in to hunt and it was an area they liked to hunt or an area they wanted undisturbed as it was close by and held game. My outfitter mentioned several times that it was a really tricky strip and challenging to land with the wind and direction of the runway. He stated multiple times that he knew that it was going to be trouble and thought they shouldn't be there. The outfitter had talked to the trooper who landed and went through our camp and checked my ram about the new plane/people and the trooper said he had not seen the plane but saw hunters over there and assumed it was part of my outfitters group.
I could see that there are a lot of boundry issues and squabbles over territory. There was a guide who was trying to move in and the outfitter was talking to some of the guides about it. Apparently guide X was moving in to old retired guide Y's place and that is just not going to work because you know it is right near us and guide Z's camp is just right close by. I guess when some outfitter moves out everyone's footprint gets bigger and the space is consumed and everyone bristles when someone new wants to join the party.
I can't blame them because there are only so many sheep and he needs to have as many mountains available to hunt with as many clients he is running without worry of an overharvest.

 

[Daniel_M]

I can't blame them because there are only so many sheep and he needs to have as many mountains available to hunt with as many clients he is running without worry of an overharvest.

Gotta notch them tags for the 12-14 clients booked @ $15K a piece, you know. 38? rams in 3 seasons? Definitely not overharvest.

 

[Ray]

JOMS, his area is public land open to any human with the means to get there. There is no legal way he can stop me and my buddies from hunting the area. He does not own the area, just rents the right to charge money for hunting critters that are owned by the public. He has limited control over other commercial guides services. At some point the State is going to finalize the guide service area program and hundreds of guides will be out of business if they can't get an area. As it is now its nearly a free for all on state land when it comes to guiding.
Daniel-m, over on 24HCF there is a booking agent guy that works to fill up the slots each year. This guy can do no wrong and being 100% each year is his main selling point. Anyone that brings up an issue is squashed.

 

[Daniel_M]

Daniel-m, over on 24HCF there is a booking agent guy that works to fill up the slots each year. This guy can do no wrong and being 100% each year is his main selling point. Anyone that brings up an issue is squashed.

I hear you, and I don't have a dog in this fight, directly. Nor an issue with other hunters. It's also not directly about sheep, I've never sheep hunted. I also don't want to dilute this thread but JOMS kind aput it all out there, so seemingly it's open to comment.

It chaps my ass that, as a resident, my opportunities get controlled by an "out of state" guide, who between 2010-2013 killed 38? or so full curl rams. It's exploitation at it's finest. Region III requirements allow this, and it's gonna be a bad deal in the long run. This isn't conservation, it's a means to a total shutout by F&G. We saw some big closures come down the pipe merely hours before opening day this fall. There has been chatter on the entire state going to a draw system, zero OTC tags.

Ok, end rant. lol

 

[Stid2677]

There was some chatter in the camp about a Super Cub that was "not welcome" that was new in the area first time it had been seen. It landed somewhere nearby and was dropping off hunters in a difficult to access stretch. They had the tail number off the plane and looked it up. They believed it was the son of a doctor or lawyer (I don't remember which) flying the plane and shuttling friends/hunters around. Perhaps it was crowding them or getting into a spot that they wanted to go?

Can't have the PUBLIC accessing PUBIC land now can we,,, what a cluster. I listened to the guides that work that area at the BOG, they were fighting each other over access, the horse guys hate the cub drivers and they all hate resident hunters. Act like they are stealing from them if they want to hunt public land with friends or family.

Glad you got to harvest a ram,, you also got to see the ugly side of sheep guiding.

So I have to ask your feelings as a guided non-res,, do you feel that the residents should have equal access as guided hunters? Or should guided hunters have priority since they have paid for it??

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

I put it all out there just because I wanted to tell my story. That was my hunt and that is what happened good or bad. I am an open book and don't hold anything back most all the time. I had a terrific time but there were many things that did not sit well with me. I got my ram and worked hard for it inspite of getting lucky and getting on him and on the ground on day 2. There was another group that went over the same mountain as me, hunted the same bowls and mountains and worked hard and did not see any legal rams for 9 or 10 days and had a really tough time. I feel for them because that sucks. Maybe not enough rams to support what he is doing and that sucks to pay the money, take time away from family and work, bust your hump and burn shoe leather and not see jack.
There were two guys from Texas and they paid for a 1 on 1 hunt and there just wasn't enough guides or places to go. They took my guide as soon as we got in camp he was turned around and back out with them. They were ticked off and had been sitting in camp waiting to go out. I am not sure if they got one as I left when they were just finally getting going.
One of the reasons I got on the Dall Sheep hunt this year was because I was concerned that the state would go to a draw system soon because of the cluster mess that it is getting to be and the declining numbers and size. Maybe that is the right thing to protect the animal and prevent an over harvest?

 

[Yellowknife]

Glad you got to harvest a ram,, you also got to see the ugly side of sheep guiding.

Just so that people don't thing that JOMS is overreacting, I have actually heard worse stories from that camp. Talked at length with a couple hunters in McGrath last year that had an absolute total disaster of a trip with that outfit. Funny thing was that it ended basically the same way. They were flown out to a spike camp and then were basically abandoned along with the assistant guide. With no communications from base, they eventually had to do a forced march back through the mountains to catch the scheduled air charter back to town. Neither one of them got a sheep though and some parts of the story were so sad all I could do was laugh.

As you have picked up on, the subject of guide pressure, access, etc is a very VERY touchy one right now in Alaska sheep hunting discussions. Territorial guides are a problem in some areas, and I fear that all of us may be about to pay for it.. Note the first paragraph in this open letter posted by the BOG last month:






Yk

 

[Daniel_M]

One of the reasons I got on the Dall Sheep hunt this year was because I was concerned that the state would go to a draw system soon because of the cluster mess that it is getting to be and the declining numbers and size. Maybe that is the right thing to protect the animal and prevent an over harvest?

Guided hunts have a over an 85% success rate. Resident, OTC hunters are down in the teens percentage-wise. The issue is politics; special interest, money and corrupt BOG members.

92 rams were reported killed in 19C for 2013.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

So I have to ask your feelings as a guided non-res,, do you feel that the residents should have equal access as guided hunters? Or should guided hunters have priority since they have paid for it??

Stid, I really enjoyed reading all of your posts and looking at all of your photos. You were an inspiration during my year long build up to the hunt! Your photos and stories were awe inspiring and really a boost during my training to get into sheep shape. Thank you.
Of course the correct answer is that residents should have equal access as guided hunters. It is public land after all and we all should have access to use it and enjoy it. However I really see the side of a non resident paying a ton of money (perhaps what has taken 5-10 years maybe more to save to afford) to get the opportunity. Imagine paying $15,000 to a guide and another $2000 in airfare to get there and the guide says well I was going to take you to that mountain but there are some local residents over there chasing the sheep I want to put you on. I would be devastated. However the guide ought to be worth something and have alternative places scouted and available to get you on other sheep.
I can see both sides res vs non res. The bottom line is that there are enough mountains for us all to get it done and have successful hunts. However I am sure some spots are more productive and accessible (by plane/horse whatever) and easier to hunt once on the ground. Those spots are the ones that everyone is after I would assume.

The bottom line is that we are talking about very large amounts of money and thus it gets complicated. Perhaps an outfitter should have a cap on how many clients per animal per year?
When I was in McGrath the other two hunters (brothers) that were with a different outfitter said that they had 5 sheep hunters in camp and they had 7 registered guides in camp to server them plus the Master Guide or Outfitter. As the hunters tagged out they were removed from camp and replaced one at a time with a new hunter. A total of 10 sheep hunters were going into the Outfitters operation. No more. They were 4 out of 5 on sheep. My camp was 5 out of 10 when I left.

 

[Matt W.]

This is a complex issue for Alaska. Registration and draw areas push more and more hunters toward the general harvest areas which in turn increase the pressure in that area which ultimately results in that area going to draw. I don't envy the guys trying to solve the issue, I just hope the end results makes sense and that there is a bias toward residents and some requirement that guides should be Alaskan residents.

 

[Stid2677]

Mr JOMS,,

Stated like an attorney Sir,, , I'm saving right now for a Stone Sheep hunt, so I understand to some extent your point of view. Thank you Sir for you kind words, I can tell from your photos and your passionate telling of your story that you "get it".

I must say that you earned some experience with sweat and shoe leather that you should have gotten from your guide. The entire guide necessary rule here is based on preventing what happened to you.

Loved your photos,, what camera were you using??

This thread has made me think for sure,, there are some on here with knowledge that would be useful to know when hiring a guide. I will be sure to look into local option on any operation I hire to hunt with.

Thanks for sharing

Steve

 

[Yellowknife]

This is a complex issue for Alaska. Registration and draw areas push more and more hunters toward the general harvest areas which in turn increase the pressure in that area which ultimately results in that area going to draw. I don't envy the guys trying to solve the issue, I just hope the end results makes sense and that there is a bias toward residents and some requirement that guides should be Alaskan residents.

Complex is right. No silver bullet on this one that I can see. Going to be pain for somebody, and likely lots of somebodies with any fix. No matter what the BOG does, they are going to catch grief from all sides.

Yk

 

[Daniel_M]

Complex is right. No silver bullet on this one that I can see. Going to be pain for somebody, and likely lots of somebodies with any fix. No matter what the BOG does, they are going to catch grief from all sides.

Yk

That whole Article 8 Subsection 2 gig, you know..the one that states Legislation will control how the "people owned" natural resources are used, to include economic interests....

 

[Zbowman1]

Fantastic story and a very good read. Congrats on your ram!!!!