Factory ammo ES

[SDHNTR]

I’m helping a neighbor get set up for LR. He’s got the right tools and is shooting great groups out to 300. Had him shoot my chrono so we could start cutting dope. He is not interested in handloading but we have found the factory ammo his rifle shoots best. 1- 1.25 moa ish 10 shot groups. The problem is this ammo shows a 120-130 ES on a 15 shot string (yes, with full cooling down). I don’t see that working at distance. How do you guys shoot factory ammo deal with wide ES? Throw out the highs and lows and average the rest?

 

[Lawnboi]

That’s a bit extreme if all same lot.

All you can really do is buy a barrels worth of same lot factory ammo, document is accuracy and velocity spread, and deal with its short comings.

I’d start by buying Berger factory though if it’s available in what he’s shooting.

If it’s not the same lot, you may as well be shooting a different brand. Iv seen factory vary by lot by 100 + fps.

Part of the reason I now hand load is I just can’t justify the price for a barrels worth of factory ammo.

 

[SDHNTR]

Yes, definitely all same lot, same box actually. I know better than to cross lots and have seen a dramatic difference between lots. Especially with Barnes factory ammo.

Unfortunately, lead is not an option. California. We tried federal premium and some expensive boutique stuff loaded by choice ammo too. Those were a little better on the ES, yet nowhere near as accurate. Wasn’t even close.

 

[DangerRanger]

Of the huge ES are some extreme outliers or are you really getting a broad variation in speeds?

How far does he want to shoot?

 

[SDHNTR]

Of the huge ES are some extreme outliers or are you really getting a broad variation in speeds?

How far does he want to shoot?

Yeah, I looked for that, but there were not obvious outliers. The highs and lows were maybe 25 ish FPS from their closest neighbor.

Of course, I’m sure he wants to shoot out as far as he is sufficiently capable, but with these ranges in velocity, my advice to him was to keep it at 500 and in, at least on an animal.

This is not a new barrel either. It’s got a good 300 shots on it too, so should be fully settled.

 

[DangerRanger]

Dang rough, I’d be interested how it shot at 500. 130 variation is probably gonna get rough out there very far

 

[Formidilosus]

I’m helping a neighbor get set up for LR. He’s got the right tools and is shooting great groups out to 300. Had him shoot my chrono so we could start cutting dope. He is not interested in handloading but we have found the factory ammo his rifle shoots best. 1- 1.25 moa ish 10 shot groups. The problem is this ammo shows a 120-130 ES on a 15 shot string (yes, with full cooling down). I don’t see that working at distance. How do you guys shoot factory ammo deal with wide ES? Throw out the highs and lows and average the rest?

While that’s pretty bad, you need to shoot it at distance and see. ES tells you one thing, but it doesn’t always or even mostly correlate with groups at range- to the point that I don’t measure or look at it until I’ve shot shot the ammo at whatever my max range is. I’ve had rifle/ammo combos that had 80-100fps ES over 30 shots that were MOA or better at 800 yards.

 

[Dos XX]

How far is the bullet jumping?

Depending on % of case fill and whether the round is crimped, I would be tempted to seat the bullets deeper in .003 increments and see what happens.

 

[SDHNTR]

First, why are you looking at ES? SD is what you should be using.

An ES of 120 - 130 fps is not my experience with what should be normal with decent factory ammo. Quality factory "match" will have an SD of 15 fps (or less) and an ES of 50 - 60 fps, using 20-round strings.

The only factory ammo in recent memory that I've seen break 100 fps for ES was Nosler premium. That had terrible short range precision, terrible SD/ES, and cost the most in the cartridge I was looking at.

What chrono are you guys using, and does this friend have consistent/proper fundamentals?

Yes, the other stuff was in the 60-70 range but shot like crap. 2+ moa at 100. This isn’t “match” ammo. It’s readily available Barnes Vortx that the rifle happens to like.

Chrono is a Labradar. Fundamentals are good enough to consistently hold moa ish groups out to 300 (as far as our range goes).

We’ll need to get out to some BLM to shoot farther. May need to just put the chrono away and see what groups look like at distance before moving further.

 

[SDHNTR]

How far is the bullet jumping?

Depending on % of case fill and whether the round is crimped, I would be tempted to seat the bullets deeper in .003 increments and see what happens.

Read the original post again.

 

[DangerRanger]

Narrowing your options to copper factory really makes it harder (not your fault). Hopeful you’re able to take it to 500 and see decent results.

 

[nobody]

I would echo what Form said above in his post. On paper, that is pretty extreme and could potentially cause an issue. But on paper is very different from actuals in practice. Could you guys maybe get to a 600 yard range? Maybe, in practice, it won't prove to be as big of an issue. But I agree, that would make me raise an eyebrow for sure.

As an aside, has he tried the LRX factory ammo? I went through a brief moment where I experimented with monos and the factory 127 LRX shot very very well in my 6.5 Creed. I know I shot it at distance, but I don't remember how far exactly I shot it to, but I remember it was consistent at all distances I tested it at. Never did chrono it, just used the CDS turret I had on the Leupold scope I used to use that was etched for the 143 ELDX factory ammo I was using at the time. I wasn't very knowledgeable at the time, but if I had to go with monos for some reason, that's where I would start based on my own experiences.

 

[SDHNTR]

I would echo what Form said above in his post. On paper, that is pretty extreme and could potentially cause an issue. But on paper is very different from actuals in practice. Could you guys maybe get to a 600 yard range? Maybe, in practice, it won't prove to be as big of an issue. But I agree, that would make me raise an eyebrow for sure.

As an aside, has he tried the LRX factory ammo? I went through a brief moment where I experimented with monos and the factory 127 LRX shot very very well in my 6.5 Creed. I know I shot it at distance, but I don't remember how far exactly I shot it to, but I remember it was consistent at all distances I tested it at. Never did chrono it, just used the CDS turret I had on the Leupold scope I used to use that was etched for the 143 ELDX factory ammo I was using at the time. I wasn't very knowledgeable at the time, but if I had to go with monos for some reason, that's where I would start based on my own experiences.

I shoot the 127 LRX in my PRC. It has not however been very available in factory form for my buds .300wm we’re talking about here.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Unknown munitions custom ammo.

But I add all the velocity together, then divide that by the number of shots for my starting point.

 

[h2so4]

Here is a post on the xlr website showing some factory ammo-

Choosing the Correct Ammo for a Hunting Rifle

Choosing the correct ammo for a hunting rifle is crucial for precision and safety. Unlock the secrets to perfect ammo pairing today!

xlrindustries.com

 

[SDHNTR]

Here is a post on the xlr website showing some factory ammo-
View attachment 551831

Choosing the Correct Ammo for a Hunting Rifle

Choosing the correct ammo for a hunting rifle is crucial for precision and safety. Unlock the secrets to perfect ammo pairing today!

xlrindustries.com

Must be nice.

 

[Macintosh]

Question—if its simply for practice its different, but I thought I understood from one of your comments that this was for hunting. Based on the velocities you are measuring, at what range will it run out of sufficient velocity to expand reliably? I ask b/c if its copper ammo it likely has reduced range compared to lead regardless of how consistent it is.
(Is CA copper-only even for range/practice, or just for hunting?)

 

[SDHNTR]

Question—if its simply for practice its different, but I thought I understood from one of your comments that this was for hunting. Based on the velocities you are measuring, at what range will it run out of sufficient velocity to expand reliably? I ask b/c if its copper ammo it likely has reduced range compared to lead regardless of how consistent it is.
(Is CA copper-only even for range/practice, or just for hunting?)

700 ish

 

[Macintosh]

165 or 180gr? Either way has to be darn close to 1600 fps or less at 700, seems awfully low velocity to count on expansion?
Guess Im more conservative than most with reducing range based on impact velocity with monos. I was going to ask whether the velocity spread mattered as much as it would at longer ranges, but thats a lot farther than I expected you to say.

 

[SDHNTR]

165 or 180gr? Either way has to be darn close to 1600 fps or less at 700, seems awfully low velocity to count on expansion?
Guess Im more conservative than most with reducing range based on impact velocity with monos. I was going to ask whether the velocity spread mattered as much as it would at longer ranges, but thats a lot farther than I expected you to say.

It’s 1760 ish at 700. Figuring on 1800 fps min velocity. Put in the right place, I have no problem with that. I’ve been part of hundreds of copper kills. 3 just this last weekend. I don’t get too hung up on numbers on paper.