FAQ: Match and Target Bullets for Hunting (Open Tip and Hollow Point)

[hereinaz]

There is a lot of information and opinion on the internet about using target or match bullets. For this discussion I focus on "open tip" bullets like the Sierra Match King and Norma Golden Bullet that came up recently, but they apply to all "match" and "target" bullets that do not have a "tip" like the Hornady ELDm or Sierra Tipped Match King.

Berger is the best example because they sell their bullets in both target and hunting flavor. And, the difference in the bullet components is what matters, and why they recommend only their hunting bullets for game. I shoot Berger and have not had a failure, and I did a lot of research and review to make that decision. Yes, I read reports about failures, but I take them with a grain of salt, and compare the number of reports of failure (nothing is perfect) and who is reporting the failure, and couldn't be more confident in my choice. I talk about my experience with them later, but that really isn't enough to trust just me about bullets. The information in this FAQ should help you understand what you are reading and take into account the opinions of others.

I know there is a lot of success with target/match bullets. I personally use Berger hunting bullets, which are "match" style bullets that are specifically configured and designed to ensure fragmentation--something other manufacturers aren't necessarily doing. Berger has enough confidence to market them as hunting, and there should be enough proof in the pudding for why they are willing to put their reputation out there for them.

So, if you are reading this, you might be like me. I am always a little tempted to buy and use other "target" bullets for hunting when they shoot so good out of a rifle, but I always conclude that there is just enough sliver of doubt/lack of confidence to stick with them for range shooting and practice only. I ask myself, why risk it when the cost of the bullet is a small fraction of the cost of the tag, rifle, gas, food, vacation, etc...

By the end of the FAQ, you can make a decision for yourself. Maybe you have a hunt and don't have time to test another bullet, and you have a factory load with SMK that shoots amazing. Can you use it? Yes, you can, but there will always be a little doubt. If you keep reading, you'll at least know the risk of taking that ammo and be able to take steps to minimize the risk of failure.

Correct me if I am wrong, or add to it in the comments. If you disagree, that's great, lets get that into the discussion, but please take the time to explain it and give context. I've tried to be fair and balanced as possible, I hope it shows.

Generally, the "question mark" hanging over many target bullets, like the SMK and Norma one that came up, is that the bullet can perform well 90% of the time, but you still have the one that pencils through for some reason. And, that "question mark" often bleeds over to other "match style" hunting bullets like the Berger, ELDm, or TMK, but really shouldn't because they are in a different class performance wise.

When it comes to non-tipped "target" or "match" bullets, I understand the issues from the "questionable" manufacturers like Sierra/Norma are thicker jackets and manufacturing consistency like jacket thickness and closed tips that lead to varied terminal results--that niggling 10% or less (and I made up 10% as at best a wild educated guess). I say "questionable" only in the sense of terminal performance on game. They are clearly high quality bullets for targets and match, performing without question.

It is helpful to understand why Berger "hunting" bullets don't fall into that category, even though they were originally "target" bullets. The original Berger "target" bullet back in the day used a thinner jacket than their current "target" bullets. Their old jackets/hunting jackets are thinner than the "questionable" match bullets. Like everything, target shooters tested them and were using them successfully on game, so when Berger thickened the jacket on the "target" bullets they continued manufacturing "hunting" bullets with the old style thinner jacket.

That is why Berger advertises its bullets either as hunting or target. And, when it comes to the variations of manufactured bullets, Berger may use a traditional, VLD or Hybrid shape (I understand Elite Hunters are Hybrid, no?), but it is the jacket that distinguishes it for hunting purposes. I haven't looked, but I don't think they are doing their tip uniforming on hunting bullets, are they?

This thicker target jacket vs. the thinner hunting jackets is the reason why I will only use the Berger hunting bullets. I have only shot Berger hunting bullets and never had anything except devastating fragmentation on game for my limited sample of a dozen or so animals since I started hunting. That includes a couple of shots at distance when MV dropped between 1700 and 1800 fps on elk. Has killed quickly and effectively with most between 300 and 550 yards. I have never had to track an animal I've shot. Seems like that is the experience of most with Berger, so I will keep shooting them.

Besides my experience, I have convinced the small circle of hunters and shooters around me to use Berger (and follow me down the rabbit hole to buy better rifles, scopes, to handload, etc.). None of them have lost an animal that they shot with Berger bullets (except a couple incidents that will remain unnamed because you can't include a crappy shot that would contaminate the data for our purposes.)

When it comes down to the complaints about Berger bullets, nothing is 100% perfect, and the reports are rare enough, third hand, and don't come from sources I know enough to trust. I know lots of guys use Berger Target bullets successfully, so I wonder how many of the "Berger's penciled on me" were due to the use of target bullets.

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

 

[hereinaz]

OTM- "Open Tip Match" is the other critical consideration for performance of a target/match bullet.

The open tips of "target" bullet is critical to terminal performance. Though people refer to them as "hollow points, they are more technically/specifically called "open tip" bullets. Hollow point seems to be a more common term and use as a broader category from the past to mean "not FMJ and not soft point lead."

Berger uses the term OTM, to be more precise about it. But, it seems most shooters consider hollow points to be any bullets with the tip left "open". But, as I understand, the term hollow point is better referred to bullets with tips purposefully left "open" as a reason to initiate quick expansion, like handgun ammo that is easy to visualize.

Match/target bullets are not "hollow point" under that definition. All match bullets are "open tip" as an artifact/result of the best manufacturing process available to create the most consistent bullets. Just like you can see "crinkles" in the jacket, open tips are an unintentional part of the manufacturing process. Unlike handgun "hollow points" leaving the tip open is not for any specific purpose, it is just the condition that the bullet is left in at the end of the manufacturing process.

Besides the open tip, there is a small void or empty space inside the tip without lead in it. Like the open tip, that small void is a result of manufacturing, not intentional. So, a bullet that "pencils through" could be one that is just out of manufacturing spec with a little more lead/smaller void, little thicker jacket, and maybe a smaller opening in the tip. That combination would prevent the tip from initiating fragmentation in soft tissue at slower velocities/longer ranges. I think everyone agrees that higher velocity can make a significant difference in terminal performance and failures are more common at lower velocities.

Tipped bullets like ELDm and TMK are built with a larger "open tip" and void that accepts the plastic pointy tip. Of course, the plastic tip initiates expansion of the larger hole behind it just like a soft point hunting round initiates expansion. And, having the bigger open tip in the jacket plus the plastic tip is what makes the ELDm "more explosive" and earlier fragmentation upon less penetration than a Berger.

So, for terminal performance on game, having an open tip, thin jacket, and void behind the tip is necessary to initiate fragmentation of match bullets. Otherwise, they will act like a full metal jacket that has nothing to initiate expansion/fragmentation in soft tissue. In match bullets, it is the initial expansion/bending or whatever you want to call it to the tip that then causes the fragmentation of the bullet, that then causes all the carnage. Yaw and tumbling of an intact bullet without expansion/fragmentation destroys tissue as well, but that is because the bullet is traveling sideways, rather than "penciling."

Berger's testing shows that the "tipped" bullets don't necessarily make a bullet's BC more consistent. If I am not mistaken, I think Berger recently started their new "pointing" process in manufacturing to decrease BC variation as a result of the variation that exists in the "open tip." But, they only do that to their target bullets because the need for the tip to initiate fragmentation. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

All that to now say that another cause of failure of a match bullet to fragment is that the tip doesn't collapse or open up enough to initiate the fragmentation. With the small fraction failures reported in "questionable brands" it could be manufacturing differences and consistency of the open tip combined with thicker jackets. Just a little variation in manufacturing could potentially be the cause of the failures: if a jacket is a little thicker, there is a little more lead behind the tip/smaller void, or the tip is a little more closed than typical.

To that end, I know that some hyper vigilant shooters will run a tiny wire drill bit into every tip, just to ensure that it is open. I won't be the one to test that practice, but I would imagine that if a guy wanted to buy and shoot these SMK on game, confirming all tips are open, or even opening them up just a little more could only help decrease the already seemingly slim possibility of bullet failure at terminal performance. You'd just want to confirm dope for those based upon whatever change there may be in BC by messing about with the tips.

 

[SloppyJ]

I'm testing them all for myself this year. I grew up using core-lokts. I started reloading because I wanted different performance.

I think you have to consider range when this conversation is brought up. If all of my shots were beyond 400yds then it might be a bit different. However when you have an opportunity at 40 and the same possibility of an opportunity at 300, it changes things.

I'm skeptical of the match bullets at close range. I also feel like you're leaving a lot on the table with a high penetrating bullet at close range. I'm looking for a good middle ground. This year I'm shooting partitions out of my 280ai, Accubonds out of my 30-06, TTSX and Bergers out of my .308, and Interlocks out of my .30-30 to get a feel.

The youth hunt is going to be my first test. I loaded up some 110gr v-max bullets in my 300blk and I'm going to let my son smack something at about 30yds. I wanted a high damage profile because he's 6 and although we practice, I'm not 100% sure where this thing will get hit at. While this isn't a match bullet, it's designed to act similar. The only saving grace is that it's on the bottom end of its velocity requirement so it shouldn't be as violent. We will see.

The rest of the year will tell the story. I'm pretty excited about the experiment.

 

[hereinaz]

I'm testing them all for myself this year. I grew up using core-lokts. I started reloading because I wanted different performance.

I think you have to consider range when this conversation is brought up. If all of my shots were beyond 400yds then it might be a bit different. However when you have an opportunity at 40 and the same possibility of an opportunity at 300, it changes things.

I'm skeptical of the match bullets at close range. I also feel like you're leaving a lot on the table with a high penetrating bullet at close range. I'm looking for a good middle ground. This year I'm shooting partitions out of my 280ai, Accubonds out of my 30-06, TTSX and Bergers out of my .308, and Interlocks out of my .30-30 to get a feel.

The youth hunt is going to be my first test. I loaded up some 110gr v-max bullets in my 300blk and I'm going to let my son smack something at about 30yds. I wanted a high damage profile because he's 6 and although we practice, I'm not 100% sure where this thing will get hit at. While this isn't a match bullet, it's designed to act similar. The only saving grace is that it's on the bottom end of its velocity requirement so it shouldn't be as violent. We will see.

The rest of the year will tell the story. I'm pretty excited about the experiment.

You are absolutely right, range is relevant. I'd use any one of the bullets you are shooting in the conditions you listed. All sorts of bullets been killing stuff for lots of years. Bullet choice for shots between 40 and 300 yards, which are the vast majority of ranges, isn't super critical. I wouldn't even worry about the marginal accuracy improvement a match bullet gives me.

You have a great plan for a sweet hunting season. I wish I could get that much hunting in. Put a smile on my face thinking about using my short barreled 300 blk on a hunt. I'd shoot the vmax in a short range situation out of a blind, I'm be curious to see what your thoughts are at the end. And, good luck!

When I went to Kodiak, I loaded up some Accubond to carry in my mag for brown bear. I am by no means a Berger purist, hahaha. I loaded for quick shots and maximum penetration. Completely different factors than my Berger. It was nice because the Accubond load shot really well and close enough for zero I would have shot it out to 300 if it was a quick shot without time to swap into my Berger loads.

I suspect shooters typically choosing the match bullets are looking at 400 and beyond when the ballistic coefficient matters for drop and wind drift. I want to be prepared for long range shots, so that's why I am all about Berger.

The concern you raise about close shots and highly fragmenting bullets is reasonable one to raise. Where I hunt, I really won't be getting a close range shot, but I'd certainly take one if it came up. And, I am not concerned about performance if muzzle velocity is under 3200 fps, because I've seen enough personally and talked with enough people who are getting a lot of direct feedback about Berger performance.

Closest animals I've killed have been two caribou inside 100 yards, and both of them I shredded the lungs and blew a chunk out lung out of the off side. My 7mm 180 Berger at 3050 MV blew a softball sided hole on the offside. My 257 cal 133 Berger at 3200 MV blew out a golf ball sized hole. Size matters...

Another factor is that I choose a double lung behind the shoulder shot. So, I don't have the concern about blowing up a bullet on bone. If you choose the shoulder shot, I'd go with a more traditional bonded type bullet that holds together for penetration. As it is, I have seen Berger blow through elk shoulder blades and make an even bigger mess with bone as additional shrapnel. Buddy ruined a quarter with that once.

 

[SloppyJ]

Appreciate the feedback. I'm excited to try them all out this year and add terminal performance to the experiment list. I'm a pretty big nerd as is so new experiments really intrigue me.

I'll be sure to post up the vmax results whenever we make it there. I hunt at my in-laws. They have a lot of land between the family since they homesteaded it and she has 7 aunts/uncles. It's pretty neat. They all beg me to thin the deer out and provide tags so I get quite a few opportunities which will provide great feedback for these tests.

My desire for the Bergers lies in the fact that I want to become more proficient at longer range shooting this coming off season. When its hard to find a place to shoot more than 200yds, you dont convincd yourself you need much long range practice. If I'm going to spend the time working up a load then I'd love for it to be a "do it all" type deal where I have confidence whenever I shoot it, regardless of distance.

Shot placement will be critical with those but I don't suspect it will be much different than a soft cup and core hunting round. It's not a huge surprise to hit a shoulder and end up throwing at least one quarter out. Not ideal but that's part of it. Like you said, softball sized exit wounds. My want for the "mid class" bullet is just for that reason, I'd love to have a little forgiveness if that's the shot I need to make.

Either way. I appreciate your time and write up. It's certainly a hot topic these days and it caught hold in my brain too. Just had to tailor it to my situation.

 

[hereinaz]

@SloppyJ sounds like a sweet situation. Kill some stuff!

 

[Wildhorse]

Accubonds have always worked wonders for me out of just about any rifle especially 100gr accubonds from my 243 great accuracy and great wound channels without excessive tissue damage and meat loss. Theres a guy up here in washington that promotes the "long range hunting" target practice on live animals is what it is. He builds competition rifles and has since decided that using target and match rounds to shoot deer at 1000+ is a great thing. Personally I find it extremely unethical to begin with but even more so when he has his 10 year old out there doing it and having to take 8 shots on a deer and hit it three times to stop it from moving enough that they can get there to put it down. I've seen many times where guys using eldm bullets and other thin jacketed match and target "high BC" bullets have shot elk inside of 300 to have that bullet do nothing but fragment before it could even reach the vitals of the animal and just wound elk that then have to be shot multiple times. I find that the accubonds as well as nosler partitions work extremely well at close ranges as well as ranges out to 600 for me and longer for others without breaking apart and fragmenting personally I want a bullet that expands holds its jacket stays together and has a deep penetrating wound channel without all the capillary damage that destroys meat. I've seen more animals need multiple shots by guys shooting match or target rounds do to fragmenting and basically blowing apart prior to then reaching the vitals because of the thin jackets that come with match and target ammo than I ever have in even inexpensive hunting rounds like 100gr interlock accubond bullets which in a 243 deliver great expansion but keep together and have fantastic penetration I personally believe that the soft target ammo with super high velocities and BC and all of that are the worst ammos to ever be used on game the eldm and most all OTM "open top match" ammo mostly due to the thin walls and non bonded jackets they all under perform as a hunting round in my opinion and experience where a solid tip thicker jacketed round maintains its mass and expansion through the animal better I watched an elk get shot in the shoulder with a 162gr eldm bullet from a 7mm remmag at 640 yards and the bullet exploded did not penetrate or break the shoulder due to it's extremely thin jacket that elk was then shot again with a 140gr nosler accubond at basically the same distance with a 270 weatherby mag also in the shoulder but had penetration through the shoulder into the lungs and exited just behind the left shoulder. Of all the "match" hunting bullets being marketed the ELD X is the only one that performs well due to a much thicker jacket in comparison to almost all others it's kind of a middle ground and yet still a gimmick round in my opinion. Match ammo was never intended to hunt with and most thin jacketed round just dont perform properly for game.

 

[hereinaz]

Accubonds have always worked wonders for me out of just about any rifle especially 100gr accubonds from my 243 great accuracy and great wound channels without excessive tissue damage and meat loss. Theres a guy up here in washington that promotes the "long range hunting" target practice on live animals is what it is. He builds competition rifles and has since decided that using target and match rounds to shoot deer at 1000+ is a great thing. Personally I find it extremely unethical to begin with but even more so when he has his 10 year old out there doing it and having to take 8 shots on a deer and hit it three times to stop it from moving enough that they can get there to put it down. I've seen many times where guys using eldm bullets and other thin jacketed match and target "high BC" bullets have shot elk inside of 300 to have that bullet do nothing but fragment before it could even reach the vitals of the animal and just wound elk that then have to be shot multiple times. I find that the accubonds as well as nosler partitions work extremely well at close ranges as well as ranges out to 600 for me and longer for others without breaking apart and fragmenting personally I want a bullet that expands holds its jacket stays together and has a deep penetrating wound channel without all the capillary damage that destroys meat. I've seen more animals need multiple shots by guys shooting match or target rounds do to fragmenting and basically blowing apart prior to then reaching the vitals because of the thin jackets that come with match and target ammo than I ever have in even inexpensive hunting rounds like 100gr interlock accubond bullets which in a 243 deliver great expansion but keep together and have fantastic penetration I personally believe that the soft target ammo with super high velocities and BC and all of that are the worst ammos to ever be used on game the eldm and most all OTM "open top match" ammo mostly due to the thin walls and non bonded jackets they all under perform as a hunting round in my opinion and experience where a solid tip thicker jacketed round maintains its mass and expansion through the animal better I watched an elk get shot in the shoulder with a 162gr eldm bullet from a 7mm remmag at 640 yards and the bullet exploded did not penetrate or break the shoulder due to it's extremely thin jacket that elk was then shot again with a 140gr nosler accubond at basically the same distance with a 270 weatherby mag also in the shoulder but had penetration through the shoulder into the lungs and exited just behind the left shoulder. Of all the "match" hunting bullets being marketed the ELD X is the only one that performs well due to a much thicker jacket in comparison to almost all others it's kind of a middle ground and yet still a gimmick round in my opinion. Match ammo was never intended to hunt with and most thin jacketed round just dont perform properly for game.

Couple things, yes, ultra high velocities over 3250 fps and close shots on game with match bullets can fail to penetrate.

These days, that is a mistake and is on the shooter for not knowing the limits. It isn’t the gear.

We 100% agree that the shots you described are unethical to us. Any shot that has low confidence of success shouldn’t be taken, that’s my ethic. Short range, long range, medium range, etc. 1000 yards on deer, that’s extreme, but I have seen more extreme shots taken with any number of bullets at ranges less than 400, and it is the judgment of the shooter, not the bullet that is wrong.

We can criticize many long range bombers, and rightly so. We can say our opinions.

Your experience with match bullets happened, but is a small sample. And, at 400 yards no good shooter with appropriate knowledge is putting a match bullet on the shoulder. There are better shots for it. And, I have seen match bullets that absolutely destroyed shoulders, so, something else could be going on there.

Educated and informed shooters of match bullets might even change your mind if you got to hunt with us and saw how we used our tools.

You have great tools as well. It is no surprise that an accubond penetrates more. It’s design allows for it. If you choose to take shoulder shots, that’s a perfect choice. Great bullet. I tell guys who choose that to keep shooting it all the time, and enjoy it.

As for match bullets destroying more meat, precision and shot placement is key. Meat loss is not really a valid argument for the way we hunt. I have killed and seen killed dozens of animals with a double lung shot that destroys the lungs completely. Of those, many leave most or all of the heart, liver, and kidneys to eat. The four quarters and neck are untouched. Some rib meat is lost.

We would agree that I could list all the yahoos out there shooting bad shots with Accubonds, and they don’t reflect on your choice and methods.

There are more than one way to skin a cat and lots of tools work.

If you shot match bullets by adopting the methodology for shot placement, you could be as successful as you are with Accubonds. No need for you to change though.

Just hope to give you a different perspective so you can understand and criticize the real problems.
Maybe next time you go out with someone with a match bullet, you can tell them, stick it in the ribs right behind the shoulder.

I would also hate for you to tell a shooter to put it on the shoulder and unnecessarily lose all that meat or increase the possibility of failure.

And, yes the ELD x is a combination of match/penetration. It is more like an interlock than a match bullet, but it only takes one to kill an elk. I zeroed and doped a buddies rifle to factory ammo and he killed past 600 yards.

 

[Formidilosus]

Accubonds have always worked wonders for me out of just about any rifle especially 100gr accubonds from my 243 great accuracy and great wound channels without excessive tissue damage and meat loss.

There is no such thing as a .243 100gr Accubond.

I've seen many times where guys using eldm bullets and other thin jacketed match and target "high BC" bullets have shot elk inside of 300 to have that bullet do nothing but fragment before it could even reach the vitals

No you haven’t.

But ok- which bullets exactly?

I've seen more animals need multiple shots by guys shooting match or target rounds do to fragmenting and basically blowing apart prior to then reaching the vitals

Which bullets exactly?

I watched an elk get shot in the shoulder with a 162gr eldm bullet from a 7mm remmag at 640 yards and the bullet exploded did not penetrate or break the shoulder due to it's extremely thin jacket that elk

No it didn’t.

Of all the "match" hunting bullets being marketed the ELD X is the only one that performs well due to a much thicker jacket in comparison to almost all others it's kind of a middle ground and yet still a gimmick round in my opinion.

ELD-M of like weight and caliber are virtually indistinguishable in tissue from ELD-X’s.

 

[Wildhorse]

I've never shot an animal personally aiming for the shoulder itself always made shots to go through lungs or even heart shot a couple but differing angles and such things happen animals move and such and bones can sometimes get in the way. Ive always made very high probability shots and again as I've said before I've never had an animal go more than about 20 yards most drop in their tracks. I agree that there is more than one way to skin a cat and match bullets may work for that perfect shot placement but like I said theres way more variables when it comes to hunting than there is shooting steel or targets and most guys probably not yourself think because they shoot a newer designed and highly marketed match bullet they are going to just drop anything at any distance. Those guys make even decently placed shots and have mixed results. I'm certain you could make any of not all of the shots you've made with your match bullets with a partition or accubond and have very similar results shot placement is key but in the variables in adverse conditions or the guy not quite capable of the pinpoint accuracy shooting off hand and such so the majority of hunters out there and in my experience seeing those style of bullets used I have seen more fail and more animals require multiple shots. That is where I see the increased loss of meat again its shot placement 90% of the time but I would rather use a bullet designed to allow for the various things that can alter that shot placement especially at distance. I understand that there are guys that do exceptional with match bullets I wont say there isnt theres also guys killing Grizzlies with 223s all due to shot placement does not make it right for the masses. If an individual takes the time to test the rounds and can show success on big game with them than wonderful continue to use it my first hand experience has shown with many fragmentation style rounds compared directly to thick jacketed bonded rounds with similar velocities and shot placement a higher single shot kill rate with less tissue damage to the bonded bullets the ELDx being the exception to that as stated above but as I said before its design is more that of a true hunting round and less so of a match round. The bergers you use also have a thicker jacket which allows for better maintained mass unlike an ELDm. Your bergers may be a bullet I try in the future myself due to having a similar almost hybrid design for the Hunting bullets. The issue I have is guys using true match bullets like the ELDm thin jacket not designed for hunting at all vs using the Berger hunters or the ELDx which may yes have match qualities but was designed as a true hunting bullet. That is where I see the terminal issues is with those bullets.

 

[Wildhorse]

There is no such thing as a .243 100gr Accubond.








No you haven’t.

But ok- which bullets exactly?





Which bullets exactly?





No it didn’t.




ELD-M of like weight and caliber are virtually indistinguishable in tissue from ELD-X’s.

Sorry it was a partition not the accubond I typed the wrong name my 90s are accubonds and the 100s are partitions most of the issues I have seen have been ELDm or Sierra match king those two have been the ones I have seen the issues with the ELDm may not have exploded but it fragmented and did not penetrate past the shoulder elk never even dropped. I have only really seen failures from the ELDm I have seen success with the ELDx bullets. And the sierra match king bullets I've seen used all failed to stop the animal quickly or required multiple shots from the shooter.

 

[Formidilosus]

Sorry it was a partition not the accubond I typed the wrong name my 90s are accubonds and the 100s are partitions most of the issues I have seen have been ELDm or Sierra match king those two have been the ones I have seen the issues with the ELDm may not have exploded but it fragmented and did not penetrate past the shoulder elk never even dropped.

So you had multiple ELD-M’s not penetrate the equivalent of a squirrel? That’s how much meat is over an elks “shoulder”- about 3-4 inches.

Let’s see pictures of a 162gr ELD-M that failed to penetrate 3”.

 

[Wildhorse]

So you had multiple ELD-M’s not penetrate the equivalent of a squirrel? That’s how much meat is over an elks “shoulder”- about 3-4 inches.

Let’s see pictures of a 162gr ELD-M that failed

So you had multiple ELD-M’s not penetrate the equivalent of a squirrel? That’s how much meat is over an elks “shoulder”- about 3-4 inches.

Let’s see pictures of a 162gr ELD-M that failed to penetrate 3”.

Your obviously trying to be a troll here reasoning unknown but as stated it did not break the shoulder or reach vitals at all so this a lack or failure to penetrate where the accubond broke the shoulder and penetrated to the vitals that was what had happened. Your opinions may be different as your experiences may be different does not mean they are any more true or false just different.

 

[Formidilosus]

Your obviously trying to be a troll here reasoning unknown but as stated it did not break the shoulder or reach vitals at all so this a lack or failure to penetrate where the accubond broke the shoulder and penetrated to the vitals that was what had happened. Your opinions may be different as your experiences may be different does not mean they are any more true or false just different.

I’m not trolling. Do you have pictures of the miraculous “shoulder” with a massive surface wound that didn’t penetrate a piece of cardboard from a 162gr ELD-M?

I have killed hundreds of game animals with ELD-M’d and AMAX’s before them. I have witnessed and conducted necropsies on multiple of hundreds more that others shot. I have seen hundreds of test shots into calibrated gel through barriers, including bone. There is about 0% chance that one “blew up” and didn’t penetrate 3” (muscle) and a piece of cardboard (scapula). There is no reality that multiple did so with one person.

 

[hereinaz]

I've never shot an animal personally aiming for the shoulder itself always made shots to go through lungs or even heart shot a couple but differing angles and such things happen animals move and such and bones can sometimes get in the way. Ive always made very high probability shots and again as I've said before I've never had an animal go more than about 20 yards most drop in their tracks. I agree that there is more than one way to skin a cat and match bullets may work for that perfect shot placement but like I said theres way more variables when it comes to hunting than there is shooting steel or targets and most guys probably not yourself think because they shoot a newer designed and highly marketed match bullet they are going to just drop anything at any distance. Those guys make even decently placed shots and have mixed results. I'm certain you could make any of not all of the shots you've made with your match bullets with a partition or accubond and have very similar results shot placement is key but in the variables in adverse conditions or the guy not quite capable of the pinpoint accuracy shooting off hand and such so the majority of hunters out there and in my experience seeing those style of bullets used I have seen more fail and more animals require multiple shots. That is where I see the increased loss of meat again its shot placement 90% of the time but I would rather use a bullet designed to allow for the various things that can alter that shot placement especially at distance. I understand that there are guys that do exceptional with match bullets I wont say there isnt theres also guys killing Grizzlies with 223s all due to shot placement does not make it right for the masses. If an individual takes the time to test the rounds and can show success on big game with them than wonderful continue to use it my first hand experience has shown with many fragmentation style rounds compared directly to thick jacketed bonded rounds with similar velocities and shot placement a higher single shot kill rate with less tissue damage to the bonded bullets the ELDx being the exception to that as stated above but as I said before its design is more that of a true hunting round and less so of a match round. The bergers you use also have a thicker jacket which allows for better maintained mass unlike an ELDm. Your bergers may be a bullet I try in the future myself due to having a similar almost hybrid design for the Hunting bullets. The issue I have is guys using true match bullets like the ELDm thin jacket not designed for hunting at all vs using the Berger hunters or the ELDx which may yes have match qualities but was designed as a true hunting bullet. That is where I see the terminal issues is with those bullets.

Don’t shoot the Berger hunting bullets cause they have a thin jacket. They are nearly indistinguishable from ELDm in practice.

Guys complain about their Accubond and Partitions failing, but you never have a problem. I believe the complaints come from user error.

You complain about match but a bunch of us never have a problem.

Absent facts, my inside default is to think the complainers are exaggerating. Strange things happen, but I bet you wouldn’t believe people talking smack about your bullets either.

I am always amazed that one bullet is amazing and the other bullet has major problems.

 

[Wildhorse]

I’m not trolling. Do you have pictures of the miraculous “shoulder” with a massive surface wound that didn’t penetrate a piece of cardboard from a 162gr ELD-M?

I have killed hundreds of game animals with ELD-M’d and AMAX’s before them. I have witnessed and conducted necropsies on multiple of hundreds more that others shot. I have seen hundreds of test shots into calibrated gel through barriers, including bone. There is about 0% chance that one “blew up” and didn’t penetrate 3” (muscle) and a piece of cardboard (scapula). There is no reality that multiple did so with one person.

No I dont have any pictures I've actually never taken pictures of any hunts or animals until this last year never felt the need to. I didnt see the included question in the previous post either and to answer it no it was not multiple eldm it was a test figure of one. After that hunt my buddy actually sold that rifle and went back to archery hunting having never used the rounds or a 7mm personally I cant even attempt to replicate it. Like I said this was just my experience when it has been used friends have used eld m and the match kings for probably around 20ish animals and yes I know small sample size but in those I have seen that elk not even go down or have the penetration through the shoulder I've seen others be shot and take off for quite a long ways and require tracking or needed multiple shots to keep down. Like I've said I have always used accubond and partition bullets so maybe if I used the eld m or others like it my option would be different I just can go off of what I've seen first hand from others using them and base that against my own use of the others that is all.

 

[Formidilosus]

No I dont have any pictures I've actually never taken pictures of any hunts or animals until this last year never felt the need to. I didnt see the included question in the previous post either and to answer it no it was not multiple eldm it was a test figure of one. After that hunt my buddy actually sold that rifle and went back to archery hunting having never used the rounds or a 7mm personally I cant even attempt to replicate it. Like I said this was just my experience when it has been used friends have used eld m and the match kings for probably around 20ish animals and yes I know small sample size but in those I have seen that elk not even go down or have the penetration through the shoulder I've seen others be shot and take off for quite a long ways and require tracking or needed multiple shots to keep down. Like I've said I have always used accubond and partition bullets so maybe if I used the eld m or others like it my option would be different I just can go off of what I've seen first hand from others using them and base that against my own use of the others that is all.

So to be perfectly clear- you personally witnessed a 162gr ELD-M hit an elk in the scapula, at 640 yards that not penetrate 3 inches, and then you watched a 140gr Accubond penetrate that same elks scapula?

So what did the wound look like that didn’t penetrate 3 inches?

 

[Wildhorse]

Don’t shoot the Berger hunting bullets cause they have a thin jacket. They are nearly indistinguishable from ELDm in practice.

Guys complain about their Accubond and Partitions failing, but you never have a problem. I believe the complaints come from user error.

You complain about match but a bunch of us never have a problem.

Absent facts, my inside default is to think the complainers are exaggerating. Strange things happen, but I bet you wouldn’t believe people talking smack about your bullets either.

I am always amazed that one bullet is amazing and the other bullet has major problems.

I will admit I have seen where accubonds passed through and animals acted as if they were never shot was mind boggling seeing it on an elk it was shot again and then it took off elk ran for probably close to a mile when it was recovered the two holes were within a fist of eachother and both lung shots again not my animal but did see it that buddy also went back to archery hunting after that. I will agree that I think theres no way one bullet can be that vastly superior to all the rest that 90% we talked about earlier and like we both agree shot placement is key. And also like I've said I've seen the eldx used with great success.

 

[JGRaider]

168 Berger VLDH, 2900 at the muzzle, 120 yd impact behind the shoulder, mature whitetail buck weighing about 200lbs live weight......you guys ca have 'em,

 

[Wildhorse]

So to be perfectly clear- you personally witnessed a 162gr ELD-M hit an elk in the scapula, at 640 yards that not penetrate 3 inches, and then you watched a 140gr Accubond penetrate that same elks scapula?

So what did the wound look like that didn’t penetrate 3 inches?

The meat of the shoulder was pretty bloodshot for about 4" around the entry wound which wasnt actually very large there was pieces of jacket that had spread if I had to guess about 7-9 inches into the meat the elk shuddered when hit and you could watch it ripple but it never dropped and started to walk but was shot basically right away after that.