Front Sight Firearms training BANKRUPT

[hntmor]

In my email this morning… the firearms industry training MLM king has fallen

 

[Salmonchaser]

Thats unfortunate. I didn’t always agree with some of the things they taught, but I always learned something and of course maintained my proficiency. I can see where it may start getting tougher and more expensive to find legitimate training options.

 

[hntmor]

My favorite part was the denial and shocj class mates find out that one person paid $10,000 for a membership and one person paid $150 for a membership and the guy that paid 150 has the better membership.

 

[hntmor]

Or when you would see a membership “donated” at a gun or outdoors industry related fundraiser dinner with some outrageous MSRP like $25,000 listed, and the guy that bids and wins for $10,000 thinking he got a smoking deal…. Always a heartbreak

 

[BriderLV]

It's chapter 11 (reorg), so probably trying to shed some debt from the condo fiasco.

 

[hntmor]

It's chapter 11 (reorg), so probably trying to shed some debt from the condo fiasco.

Are you saying my lifetime hotel benefits aren’t ever going to become a reality…

 

[deltadukman]

I just looked at their website. If anyone was dumb enough to give them money, they deserve to betaken to the cleaners. So much cringe on that website it reads like a gun range timeshare. Those fees are outrageous plus even after dropping $5k plus, you have to pay a $50 background check fee and $75 in fees per day use and $50 per month maintenance fee. This one below is my favorite option. Sign me up now! Let me email you to invite me to pay you $120,000.

The Order of the Knights of Front Sight!​

This is an invitation-only, application-process membership sent directly from Dr. Ignatius Piazza.

If you are interested in receiving an invitation, please contact Front Sight with your request.

The cost of the Knights Membership is $120,000.

 

[MattB]

Definitely unfortunate for Front Sight to be in that circumstance, but hopefully they come out in a good spot following reorganization. I've only taken a couple of classes there, but IMO the training was top-notch.

 

[def90]

I think there was a time back in the day when they really were the Kings of firearms training, it used to be impossible to get good firearms training, however with all of the veterans that our country has produced over the last 20 years there are more and more options for good local multi day classes without the need for travel.

 

[eddielasvegas]

A member here was selling a 4 day course certificate about a year ago and I considered buying it.

I called FSFTI to ensure the cert was transferable, ask general questions and just get the warm and fuzzies about the classes, etc.

After doing a little research and another call to them, I learned they reduced the class rounds shot from ~650 to ~450, which did not make me happy. This was due to WuFlu, which I understood given the crazy high cost of ammo then.

I also learned the instructor to student ratio was 30:1 (or something like that), which was not going to work for me.

Towards the end of the second call, the guy I was talking with mentioned going to a URL on their web site, answer a few questions and watch a ~15 minute video and you'll get the 4 day class for free.

In the end I decided not to take class (even though it was free) for the ammo and ratio reasons mentioned above. I'm not opposed to taking the class if these shortfalls (IMHO) are resolved.

This news, of course, gives me pause on this for sure so thanks for posting this useful info @hntmor.

Here is some interesting reading from the Pahrump Valley Times if you are so inclined. It's from early this year, but sheds some on light on the founder and this story.


Eddie

 

[MattB]

A member here was selling a 4 day course certificate about a year ago and I considered buying it.

I called FSFTI to ensure the cert was transferable, ask general questions and just get the warm and fuzzies about the classes, etc.

After doing a little research and another call to them, I learned they reduced the class rounds shot from ~650 to ~450, which did not make me happy. This was due to WuFlu, which I understood given the crazy high cost of ammo then.

I also learned the instructor to student ratio was 30:1 (or something like that), which was not going to work for me.

Towards the end of the second call, the guy I was talking with mentioned going to a URL on their web site, answer a few questions and watch a ~15 minute video and you'll get the 4 day class for free.

In the end I decided not to take class (even though it was free) for the ammo and ratio reasons mentioned above. I'm not opposed to taking the class if these shortfalls (IMHO) are resolved.

This news, of course, gives me pause on this for sure so thanks for posting this useful info @hntmor.

Here is some interesting reading from the Pahrump Valley Times if you are so inclined. It's from early this year, but sheds some on light on the founder and this story.


Eddie

That is interesting. I took the 4-day defensive handgun course in 10/21 while COVID restrictions were still in effect in Pahrump. We fired ~650 rounds during the class and had 4 instructors for 52 students. One thing that is really cool about Front Sight is that there were a lot of people in the class who had previously taken that and more advanced courses who are willing to help less experienced students. I was paired with a guy who was a FS vet and it was almost like getting 4 days of 1:1 training. It was a really good class - good enough I took it a second time and brought a friend who likewise really enjoyed it. I am looking forward to when the weather cools off to take some of the other classes they offer.

My sense is some people get hung up on what they think Front Sight isn't and it doesn't allow them to appreciate it for what it is (an affordable/available way to get quality firearms training).

 

[Wrench]

I helped build the place in the early 2k's. The training was superior at that time. The business model was not something I could line up with...but the hands on was great and I shot with some really good guys.

Niche bit off a lot and the dream was grand....but had it just been training, he'd have had something.

 

[hntmor]

A member here was selling a 4 day course certificate about a year ago and I considered buying it.

I called FSFTI to ensure the cert was transferable, ask general questions and just get the warm and fuzzies about the classes, etc.

After doing a little research and another call to them, I learned they reduced the class rounds shot from ~650 to ~450, which did not make me happy. This was due to WuFlu, which I understood given the crazy high cost of ammo then.

I also learned the instructor to student ratio was 30:1 (or something like that), which was not going to work for me.

Towards the end of the second call, the guy I was talking with mentioned going to a URL on their web site, answer a few questions and watch a ~15 minute video and you'll get the 4 day class for free.

In the end I decided not to take class (even though it was free) for the ammo and ratio reasons mentioned above. I'm not opposed to taking the class if these shortfalls (IMHO) are resolved.

This news, of course, gives me pause on this for sure so thanks for posting this useful info @hntmor.

Here is some interesting reading from the Pahrump Valley Times if you are so inclined. It's from early this year, but sheds some on light on the founder and this story.


Eddie

That was a rough read from the PVT… if the way that guy markets doesn’t make your skin crawl…

 

[hntmor]

I helped build the place in the early 2k's. The training was superior at that time. The business model was not something I could line up with...but the hands on was great and I shot with some really good guys.

Niche bit off a lot and the dream was grand....but had it just been training, he'd have had something.

Yeah it might have been

 

[Yoder]

I was shooting at an outdoor public range one time. Practicing draws, reloads and target transitions with my G17. This guy asks me "where did you train?" I didn't even understand the question. He said he trained at Front Sight but couldn't believe how much better my training was. I told him here at the public range, by myself. They had some gimmick about getting so many shots on target in a couple seconds by the time your training was over. At point blank range, it's pretty easy to get that done. He couldn't understand why he couldn't hit anything further away. I told him it took me hundreds of hours of practice and tens of thousands of rounds of ammo to get to what is considered mediocre in USPSA competitions. He didn't seem to like that answer. I always wanted to go there until I met that guy.

 

[MattB]

I was shooting at an outdoor public range one time. Practicing draws, reloads and target transitions with my G17. This guy asks me "where did you train?" I didn't even understand the question. He said he trained at Front Sight but couldn't believe how much better my training was. I told him here at the public range, by myself. They had some gimmick about getting so many shots on target in a couple seconds by the time your training was over. At point blank range, it's pretty easy to get that done. He couldn't understand why he couldn't hit anything further away. I told him it took me hundreds of hours of practice and tens of thousands of rounds of ammo to get to what is considered mediocre in USPSA competitions. He didn't seem to like that answer. I always wanted to go there until I met that guy.

That is very odd - sounds like something got lost in translation or that guy was not the sharpest knife in the drawer. In Front Sight's introductory defensive handgun course the bulk of the range work revolves around firing timed pairs from the holster w/ a concealment garment at 3, 5, 7, 10, and 15 yards (from ~1.3 seconds to ~2.5, with the allowed time increasing with distance).

Front Sight's course description speaks to the goal of being able to fire two sighted rounds to the thoracic cavity in 1.5 seconds at 5 yards. I'd politely disagree that being able to quickly and accurately fire two rounds from a holster under a concealment garment at typical gunfight range is a "gimmick".

The next most advanced handgun class (tactical handgun) includes shooting to 50 yards.

Edit: you definitely hit the nail in the head in that training without practice can only get you so far. It is really what you do to reinforce and improve upon the training you receive that dictates ability.

 

[Whaledriver]

My experience with "firearms training" is the higher they think of themselves, the lower quality of training you will receive. This goes for the shills as well as professional agency dudes. Just my humble opinion. Kinda like a great football player doesn't always make a great coach.

 

[Yoder]

That is very odd - sounds like something got lost in translation or that guy was not the sharpest knife in the drawer. In Front Sight's introductory defensive handgun course the bulk of the range work revolves around firing timed pairs from the holster w/ a concealment garment at 3, 5, 7, 10, and 15 yards (from ~1.3 seconds to ~2.5, with the allowed time increasing with distance).

Front Sight's course description speaks to the goal of being able to fire two sighted rounds to the thoracic cavity in 1.5 seconds at 5 yards. I'd politely disagree that being able to quickly and accurately fire two rounds from a holster under a concealment garment at typical gunfight range is a "gimmick".

The next most advanced handgun class (tactical handgun) includes shooting to 50 yards.

Edit: you definitely hit the nail in the head in that training without practice can only get you so far. It is really what you do to reinforce and improve upon the training you receive that dictates

That is very odd - sounds like something got lost in translation or that guy was not the sharpest knife in the drawer. In Front Sight's introductory defensive handgun course the bulk of the range work revolves around firing timed pairs from the holster w/ a concealment garment at 3, 5, 7, 10, and 15 yards (from ~1.3 seconds to ~2.5, with the allowed time increasing with distance).

Front Sight's course description speaks to the goal of being able to fire two sighted rounds to the thoracic cavity in 1.5 seconds at 5 yards. I'd politely disagree that being able to quickly and accurately fire two rounds from a holster under a concealment garment at typical gunfight range is a "gimmick".

The next most advanced handgun class (tactical handgun) includes shooting to 50 yards.

Edit: you definitely hit the nail in the head in that training without practice can only get you so far. It is really what you do to reinforce and improve upon the training you receive that dictates ability.

All I'm saying is being able to draw and hit at 5 yards center mass wouldn't take that long to master. That wouldn't make you a good shot. Just good at drawing and hitting at 5 yards. Which is exactly what this guy could do. For self defense it's a great skill. It could have been great training. It's just not realistic to think you'll be awesome after taking a class. Also I really wasn't interested in "tactical" training. I would have rather taken a class from Ben Stoeger or Bob Vogel. It would have cost way less and they are some of the best shooter's on the planet.

 

[hntmor]

I doubt that many people that had and above average skills (ie comp shooters) would gain anything from their training. But if you come in with 0 knowledge, I’m sure you would improve

 

[hntmor]

I wouldn’t be mad if they have to auction off the land and a reputable training company that wasn’t trying to become the Pampered Chef/DOTERRA/whatever other MLM
company of the firearms industry took over. The facilities are there. The management isn’t.