Keeping weight on active dog

[PSDBowhunter]

I have a 3 yr old english pointer that my cousin gave me because their family could no longer care for him. He came to us looking very muscular and well put together. I take him on hikes and runs and generally let him out around the house to "hunt" for birds, rabbits, etc. He gets a lot of activity at our house. Since we've had him for 6 months or so, he is noticeably thinner despite my best efforts to give him high quality dog food (PPP 30/20). I feed him 3 times per day and give him 2 cups per feeding for a total of 6 cups (which seems like an awful lot to me). We took him to the vet the other month and they said they couldn't find anything wrong with him. He was a little lighter than they would typically like to see, but otherwise a very healthy dog.

Have any of you dealt with this? Do I just need to limit his activity? Or give him supplemental fats with his food?

 

[id_jon]

You could try Inukshuk 32/32. I've never seen an EP that wasn't lean though.

 

[*zap*]

give him fat.....tallow, beans, fat scraps....butchers will sell you beef fat for $1 a pound or so.

 

[slvrslngr]

Switch to the Inukshuk and free feed him. You can add some eggs, meat scraps etc. A chat with your vet may be helpful, some health issues can be caused by too much fat.

 

[Jason Snyder]

FWIW I used to feed PPP sport all the time. My male Drahthaar pretty much stopped eating it and would eat every other meal or so. I switched him to Victor and he gained weight and looked much better.

I’m now feeding Inukshuk 26/16 at 3 cups a day and he looks very good. 62ish pounds and i hunt him 2-3 days a week. He’ll do 15-20 miles per hunt. 2-4 mile off leash walks almost daily.

We are feeding the 26/16 so I can buy one kind of food (11 month old puppy) but I’ll will probably switch to the 30 when she’s old enough for it just to cut down on feeding volume.

6 cups is way too much. Don’t free feed either. It can create some behavioral issues.

Feed him a good quality food at 3-4 cups per day and add some olive oil to each feeding if needed.

 

[PSDBowhunter]

I read about the Inukshuk on another thread. I may try that. When we first got him I was feeding my dogs Health Extension. I started supplementing with raw eggs or olive oil and that seemed to help. When I switched to PPP I was hoping the 30/20 mix would help, but it doesn't seem to.

I'd be up for trying the Inukshuk at 3-4 cups per day. Would you recommend their 32/32 mix? That has 720 Kcal/cup vs the PPP 30/20 at 484 Kcal/cup.

I also have a 1 year old Dalmatian and a 12 year old lab. I usually just adjust portion sizes based on their needs.

 

[Jason Snyder]

How much is your dogs ideal weight?

Honestly it doesn’t sound like this dog is really working all that much, all things considered.

 

[PSDBowhunter]

Good question. He weighed 62.5 lbs before we got him. When we took him to the vet a couple months later he was 56 lbs.

The first picture is when we first got him. The second is after being at our house for a couple months.

We let him roam outside most of the day, but he definitely isn't doing 15-20 miles like your dog is.

 

[TxxAgg]

See if he likes peanut butter.

 

[AK_Skeeter]

I feed kibble with at least 25% fat....4 cups per day keeps my 1 year old pup the right weight.
Either Red Paw PowerEdge 32k (25%fat, 32%protein) or Inukshuk 32/32 which has 32% fat, 32% protein.

 

[chemist]

First thing first. Good on you for adopting a high energy breed and giving him a good home. That is commendable, especially if you do not read the benefits of the breed from hunting him.

The first picture where the dog is on point, it actually looks on the heavy side of acceptable for the breed to me. In the second picture he certainly looks on the skinny side, but not insanely thin. I have seen more than one dog start the hunting season like the first picture and end the hunting season looking like the second picture.

Second: you say you let him roam outside most of the day but that he definitely isn't doing 15 to 20 miles a day. I do not know what amount of acreage you are letting him run, but if he is free running on a lot of ground and has much prey drive, and is out there for more than three hours a day, I think you are severely underestimating his mileage. For both my shorthairs, 15 to 20 miles happens in less than an hour in thin cover and in 1.5 hours in moderately thick cover. This is as measured by a GPS. My dogs are bred towards the foot hunter and are low speed by comparison to the horse trial bred dogs. Not all pointers are bred to run wide open full throttle all the time, but many are. Obviously you know the duration, acreage and his run better than us, but the breed was bred to run and a 3 year old dog is going to do just that. If you strapped a GPS collar on him, I think you would be surprised to realize the mileage he is actually doing.

My number one suggestion is to reduce the frequency of your feeding for a few reasons. I prefer once a day at night. If you do twice a day give him 25% in the morning and 75% at night.

Pointers are not the worst breed for stomach twist/bloat but they are deep chested dogs that have an increased risk. Feeding within a couple hours of exercise increases risk of bloat. For this reason alone, I would cut out the middle meal.

Frequent feeding may also be interfering with nutrient absorption. It is common for dogs to dump their bowels when they run. It takes a dog 10ish hours to fully process food. If you are feeding 2/3rds of the food before he is done exercising for the day there is a very good chance the dog is excreting the food before having a chance to absorb the calories out of it. On top of that when dogs exercise with a full bowel they can get the squirts and irritate their bowels. Having irritated bowels will further inhibit nutrient absorption.

Is he fixed or intact? This will effect his metabolism which in turns changes the amount of feed he needs. If I were in your shoes, the first change I would make is in his food. Provide 75+% of it at night after he has settled in. This will allow him to sleep for 10 hours and fully digest his food before he gets up and runs the next day.

Pay attention to his stools. If they are loose there is something going on with his digestion system. This could be worms, giardia etc. but it can also be as simple as feeding him to much or him getting to much exercise with food in his system. A dog with poor stools does not have a proper working digestive system for some reason and is not going to absorb all of the nutrient as a consequence. Not absorbing nutrients will inhibit weight gain.

I would also start limiting his exercise. Run him for two hours a day off leash. See if his weight stabilizes.

Best of luck to you and your buddy.

 

[jmez]

Inukshuk works. About 2 weeks on the 32/32 he'll look like picture #1. That is heavy for a pointer. A good artticle.

https://todaysveterinarypractice.com/nutrition/beyond-the-guaranteed-analysis-comparing-pet-foods/

Sent from my moto g power 5G - 2023 using Tapatalk

 

[PSDBowhunter]

First thing first. Good on you for adopting a high energy breed and giving him a good home. That is commendable, especially if you do not read the benefits of the breed from hunting him.

The first picture where the dog is on point, it actually looks on the heavy side of acceptable for the breed to me. In the second picture he certainly looks on the skinny side, but not insanely thin. I have seen more than one dog start the hunting season like the first picture and end the hunting season looking like the second picture.

Second: you say you let him roam outside most of the day but that he definitely isn't doing 15 to 20 miles a day. I do not know what amount of acreage you are letting him run, but if he is free running on a lot of ground and has much prey drive, and is out there for more than three hours a day, I think you are severely underestimating his mileage. For both my shorthairs, 15 to 20 miles happens in less than an hour in thin cover and in 1.5 hours in moderately thick cover. This is as measured by a GPS. My dogs are bred towards the foot hunter and are low speed by comparison to the horse trial bred dogs. Not all pointers are bred to run wide open full throttle all the time, but many are. Obviously you know the duration, acreage and his run better than us, but the breed was bred to run and a 3 year old dog is going to do just that. If you strapped a GPS collar on him, I think you would be surprised to realize the mileage he is actually doing.

My number one suggestion is to reduce the frequency of your feeding for a few reasons. I prefer once a day at night. If you do twice a day give him 25% in the morning and 75% at night.

Pointers are not the worst breed for stomach twist/bloat but they are deep chested dogs that have an increased risk. Feeding within a couple hours of exercise increases risk of bloat. For this reason alone, I would cut out the middle meal.

Frequent feeding may also be interfering with nutrient absorption. It is common for dogs to dump their bowels when they run. It takes a dog 10ish hours to fully process food. If you are feeding 2/3rds of the food before he is done exercising for the day there is a very good chance the dog is excreting the food before having a chance to absorb the calories out of it. On top of that when dogs exercise with a full bowel they can get the squirts and irritate their bowels. Having irritated bowels will further inhibit nutrient absorption.

Is he fixed or intact? This will effect his metabolism which in turns changes the amount of feed he needs. If I were in your shoes, the first change I would make is in his food. Provide 75+% of it at night after he has settled in. This will allow him to sleep for 10 hours and fully digest his food before he gets up and runs the next day.

Pay attention to his stools. If they are loose there is something going on with his digestion system. This could be worms, giardia etc. but it can also be as simple as feeding him to much or him getting to much exercise with food in his system. A dog with poor stools does not have a proper working digestive system for some reason and is not going to absorb all of the nutrient as a consequence. Not absorbing nutrients will inhibit weight gain.

I would also start limiting his exercise. Run him for two hours a day off leash. See if his weight stabilizes.

Best of luck to you and your buddy.

Very good info. I hadn't thought of some of those things before.

You may be right, he may put on more miles than I realize. We live on a 4 acre parcel but we let the sides grow up in tall grass/early successional type habitat. It's perfect for rabbits and birds so he is constantly looking for them. I would like to put a tracker collar on him to see how far he runs.

I have noticed loose stool when taking them on runs. Sometimes they eat before they go and other times not. I'll start to limit their food to the majority at night and cut out the middle meal.

I'm glad to hear you don't think that second picture looks too thin. I was beginning to worry we were doing something wrong.

He is fixed, so I'm assuming that slows his metabolism.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Turkeygetpwnd38]

Coconut oil, egg on top of food every meal, fat from butcher.

 

[molliesmaster]

I like what the @chemist said. I would go to Inukshuk food and see if you have better results there. And definitely move your feedings to once a day, in the evening, with a lengthy amount of downtime afterwards.

Another tip that might be helpful, try floating his food with water. Some smarter people than me seem to suggest that the water helps with absorption of nutrients inside the dogs body.

 

[Dos Perros]

To me, he looks lean, but not unhealthy. That's fighting weight for a pointer.

You shouldn't be feeding ahead of activity. How do you know he isn't puking up half of that food after you give it to him? Feed once per day at sunset. If you must feed during the day limit activity for an hour or more.

What does a normal stool look like? You'll be able to tell if he's metabolizing the food efficiently. A loose stool after some firmer ones on a run is normal, IMO, especially if he's hot. I think it's unlikely he's actually burning 6 cups worth of PPP a day, would guess a lot of it is going right through him or coming out. Possible but unlikely.

For the naysayers, PPP is a high quality food. There are a couple potential downsides...some dogs are allergic, and palatability (some dogs just won't eat enough of it). There are ways to get pickier dogs to eat it. Out of a pool of about 60 dogs I don't know of a single one that wasn't able to be healthy on PPP.

 

[Jason Snyder]

For the naysayers, PPP is a high quality food. There are a couple potential downsides...some dogs are allergic, and palatability (some dogs just won't eat enough of it). There are ways to get pickier dogs to eat it. Out of a pool of about 60 dogs I don't know of a single one that wasn't able to be healthy on PPP.

I’ve talked to enough folks who had experiences similar to mine, including a veterinarian with hunting dogs that I won’t be going back to PPP.

My adult male gained about five pounds mid hunting season after switching.

If it works for others great. I have little interest in trying to make dog food palatable.

 

[Dos Perros]

I’ve talked to enough folks who had experiences similar to mine, including a veterinarian with hunting dogs that I won’t be going back to PPP.

My adult male gained about five pounds mid hunting season after switching.

If it works for others great. I have little interest in trying to make dog food palatable.

Well, you don't really make it palatable. You just get them to eat it anyway.

 

[KurtR]

I dont feed ppp because it did not agree( weakest stomach lab ever and still wants to eat everything) with my dog but the proof is in the pudding the best dogs in the country eat it and its tough to beat the research purina puts into it and the amount of support for dog games and dogs in general.

When we are running tests or training/hunting hard i always float his food and it helps him with digestion

 

[chemist]

The analogy that Dos Perros made is perfect he is at fighting weight. I personally like my dogs to look about halfway in between the first picture and the second picture. Based on the forecast I will be hunting my shorthairs on Saturday in the snow with a high of 15 deg F and 10 mph winds. I like a little more fat reserves than the second picture because I think it helps in this situation. If I lived in Tucson, the second picture would not be alarming to me. If you are not going to leave the dog outside in the cold without protection from the wind for extended periods of time then I would not be too worried if I were you.

It is hard to judge too much from a single picture but when I look at the second picture I see things that suggest to me he is very fit with a low body fat content but not starving to death or diseased. On his shoulders and on his legs he has well defined muscle mass with a fair amount of bulk that is covering the bone structure in these areas. You also see his veins prominently on top of his muscles from them being used due to exercise. If a dog, animal, or human of any kind is truly starving they will start to drop muscle mass after they drop the fat off their body.

Look up pictures of triathletes who get a ton of cardio and of people with mild anorexia. In the first case you will see well defined muscle mass and veins that are used to pumping blood. In the second case you will not see the muscles mass/structure. You will be able to count a comparable number of ribs on each of the individuals. One is a very healthy human, one is a very unhealthy human but you cannot tell that by just counting visible ribs. For all intents and purposes your dog is a triathlete.

Over the decades dogs have gotten fat just like people. We get used to seeing overfed dogs, dogs with long hair that you can't see body structure as well and just downright fat dogs. When a lot of people see the ribs on the slick coated hunting dogs (german shorthairs, visla, english pointers, weimerieners, etc) they get concerned just because it is not what they are used to seeing.

I said it before and others have repeated it but I will say it again. The most important thing you can do is changing the schedule you feed them. I firmly believe this to be the case for you dalmatian and lab as well.

One more thing to add, if you haven't done so already go buy a GPS collar and take him hunting. I realize that you are not exactly in the upland capital of the world, but I strongly suggest you at least casually hit the grouse woods or take him to a game farm. There is something magical about working with your dog to accomplish a shared goal. If bird season interferes to much with your big game season, most states (check PA rules) let you run your dog on wild birds (but not shoot them) as long as it isn't during nesting season for training purposes if you have a small game license. The March time frame it is a good excuse to go to the mountains and scout for turkey........