Muscle Fatigue Advice

[gauge]

Looking for knowledge from fitness geeks:
I am having issues with my hamstring muscle group, mainly my biceps femoris muscle, fatiguing very quickly when stressed under endurance. I have noticed it on and off for a while now but hiking the mountains and my runs over 3 miles, I can really feel my legs get tired. When lifting this is not an issue, even with high reps.

Quick overview:
I am 31 yo, am very active, and train all year around.
Diet wise I am on point. I am 80-90% paleo.
Supplement wise, I drink a protein shake, take around 900 mg of Omega 3 (EPA+DHA), and multi vitamins.
I train 6 days a week, all full body multi-joint movements (lunges, step ups, squats, presses, pull ups). 2 days early morning body weight training. 3 days HIIT w/weights (high reps / lower weight). 1 day endurance run of 3-10 miles.
I don't stretch, EVER. I am starting though, hoping this is my problem.

I thought about some cold water soaks, more stretching, and rolling my muscles out. What am I doing wrong? Any ideas or suggestions?

 

[xcutter]

Sounds like you might need more time to recover between workouts.

 

[Poser]

Stretching won't hurt, but its not going to help this problem either. From your description it sounds as if you have weak muscles in this specific area. You need to address this with some low rep, low volume heavy lifting. Greater than 80% of your max in the 2-5 rep area. 1x5, 3x3, 3x5, 5x5 type lifting. High Bar backsquats will help a little, but low bar backsquats (if you are familiar) will address this specific issue more specifically since there is more muscle recruitment especially in the hamstrings. Lunges aren't going to address this simply because the weight is not heavy enough and strength gains are best addressed by achieving maximal muscle recruitment.

Deadlifts, Romanian Deadlifts & Good Mornings will all target this muscle group very specifically.

If you are going to rock heavy deadlifts, you have to be very careful with your volume and frequency and you also have to carefully balance this out with any other pulling from the floor you are doing (cleans, snatches etc). Most strength programs will only have you doing heavy deadlifts once a week and usually in very low volume. 1x5, 4x2, 3x3 or something similar. Heavy DLs wreck your body and are difficult to recover from. Mixed with high volume training, doing too much DL volume will not allow you to sufficiently recover. IMHO, a day of heavy DLs should always be followed by a rest day unless you are a very young, a genetic mutant or taking illegal supplements. Others will disagree. I would also highly advise taking a careful inventory of your deadlifting technique, regularly filming your work sets for analysis and addressing any technique issues. Poor deadlifting technique is rampant.

Heavy good mornings and Romanian deadlifts are tricky. I would be careful here and maybe limit these to supplemental work. I think deadlifting is going to best address this issue, but because of the volume limitations, you'll need to plan your week and rest days around 1 low volume session. For endurance runners in particular, deadlifting is often one of the best barbell exercises that can be added to the training regimen.

I also think that training 6 days a week is way too much volume unless you are sleeping 10+ hours a night.Many coaches advise 4 hard sessions a week. You can add in a light/active recovery day, but the reality is, you need 2 solid recovery days a week, if not 3 with 2 of them being consecutive. It may seem counter intuitive to do "less" when you want to be in better shape, but you are doing the volume of a professional athlete without the recovery time a professional athlete gets (10-14 hours a sleep at night, massages, acupuncture etc)/.

 

[gauge]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I love getting training ideas off ppl that truly know and understand fitness.

I knew that over training would be suggested, and I am not disagreeing because obviously I am not doing something right. That being said, I know my body and how to target different areas and keep active everyday. I assure you my training does not compare to pro athletes and I have felt I had a really good balance for my body. I am getting older though and I am sure I will have to address issues similar to this in the future and adjust according. I will play around with some different lifts, running times, and rest periods. I have never felt comfortable with good mornings though, so I will have to go very light weight at first.

Any other ideas?

 

[elkyinzer]

I am in agreement with Poser but I am going to suggest that you specifically may have weak eccentric muscle fibers. Have you ever researched concentric vs. eccentric muscle contraction? I was unfamiliar with it until I had knee tendinitis flare up a few years back and the ortho suggested I look into it. Since I have, I really began to target it and have only had very minor flare ups since. In very basic terms eccentric fibers are the resistance or support fibers and give us muscle tension...think the downward phase of a squat or lunge, the muscle fibers that support you and oppose gravity are different fibers than the concentric ones which power the upward reps. It’s basic Newton’s Law in action. Obviously important to injury prevention because they are the support system that protects the joints from bearing all the load.

I would suggest first of all, you should definitely stretch, there are only benefits to be obtained there. Stretching is injury prevention 101, you can’t dig deeper and really troubleshoot until you address that. Next level, I would be sure you are properly working the eccentric muscle fibers when lifting, I specifically target the eccentric phase but at a minimum maintain proper counts and form through the eccentric phase of the lift is key, don’t get lazy. Go slow on the drops and let your eccentric fibers do their job. In the hamstrings these are especially important because they resist gravity on each step we take and in conjunction with the other leg muscles protect our knees and hips from bearing all the load. Few people focus on these which results in out of balance muscles and injury problems. Also make sure your hip flexors are strong and flexible because weakness there often throws the stride off when fatigued which can fall out in hamstring problems.

 

[gauge]

I will definitely look into to this Elkyinzer. It actually makes a lot of sense that this could be my weakness. I am not a Crossfitter but I mirror that "style" of training with lots of circuits and fast movements. I rarely slow down my training anymore. With kids and other responsibilities, I go as hard and fast as I can for around a half hour on my lifting days.
As far as hip flexors, I have tried to target them this year because I feel they are a weakness of mine. I will focus some time into this as well.
Thanks!

 

[Cant hit em]

Im no expert but I found out my hammies lagged when i started doing weighted pack hikes. Heres a couple things i did and have felt improvement.

Begin your workout with lifts focused on your Hams what ever you choose , so your fresh and not beat down ready to hit the gym door. Your form is much better and you can lift a little more weight or do more reps

Lighten up your squats and go real deep , as$ to the grass , to get your hams more involved

Stretch before and during your lil rest period while your lifting

If your doing Romanian deads make sure your bending at the hips not stiff legged there is a difference

 

[Poser]

I am in agreement with Poser but I am going to suggest that you specifically may have weak eccentric muscle fibers. Have you ever researched concentric vs. eccentric muscle contraction? I was unfamiliar with it until I had knee tendinitis flare up a few years back and the ortho suggested I look into it. Since I have, I really began to target it and have only had very minor flare ups since. In very basic terms eccentric fibers are the resistance or support fibers and give us muscle tension...think the downward phase of a squat or lunge, the muscle fibers that support you and oppose gravity are different fibers than the concentric ones which power the upward reps. It’s basic Newton’s Law in action. Obviously important to injury prevention because they are the support system that protects the joints from bearing all the load.

I would suggest first of all, you should definitely stretch, there are only benefits to be obtained there. Stretching is injury prevention 101, you can’t dig deeper and really troubleshoot until you address that. Next level, I would be sure you are properly working the eccentric muscle fibers when lifting, I specifically target the eccentric phase but at a minimum maintain proper counts and form through the eccentric phase of the lift is key, don’t get lazy. Go slow on the drops and let your eccentric fibers do their job. In the hamstrings these are especially important because they resist gravity on each step we take and in conjunction with the other leg muscles protect our knees and hips from bearing all the load. Few people focus on these which results in out of balance muscles and injury problems. Also make sure your hip flexors are strong and flexible because weakness there often throws the stride off when fatigued which can fall out in hamstring problems.

I think this is a good point. I really try and focus on the eccentric aspect of the deadlift and lower the bar in a controlled manner. On a side note, its a pet peeve of mine in Crossfit that dropping deadlifts is such a rampant and accepted practice. On the same idea, RDLs and Good Mornings may be useful here because they start with an eccentric movement. Of course, all of those movements (DLs, RDLs, GMs) should be done in a controlled manner. Just using a barbell and doing light RDLs and GMs can be a great way to stretch before or after a session.

One thing that is kind of interesting is that last season during a brutal multi day elk pack out in the San Juans, my partner and I both commented that every muscle in our body was sore, everything hurt from head to toe, but neither of felt worked in our hamstrings at all. Quads, calves, hips, ankles... all worked and sore. Lower back was tight. Hamstring just weren't complaining at all, though. Not sure why.
So a another thought that I have is spending some time on a foam roller and seeing if you can identify and surrounding tissues that may be excessively tight and causing or contributing to the hamstring discomfort. Since you run, IT band, perhaps? Could be something deep in the hip or glute. Lower back even. Tight calves might even be a contributor. You can also use the collar of a barbell and "smash" out tightness in the larger muscle groups such as your quads (quite painful) and I'd work through everything and see if you can find a trouble spot. The next thing might be to see a massage therapists and see if they can identify a trouble spot in that chain and work on it. I really do suspect that it is primarily an imbalance (too much pushing, not enough pulling) and there may be some minor contributing factors such as tight IT band from running and/or slight overuse from too much training volume/ not enough recovery focus or too much sitting. At 31, you're not in your metabolic golden years anymore, but you most certainly haven't hit a significant slow down yet either. Many people hit that between 35 and early 40s. Your body is just not going to produce the same amount of growth hormones, recovery slows down etc. Its far from the end of the world, but recovery focus should be viewed as 51% of your training. You're not building strength, speed or endurance when you are training. Those things only come during recovery as a result of training. In your 20s, you could probably do anything you want, write off recovery altogether and still grow and get in better shape. That's going to come to an end if it hasn't already.

 

[Jason Snyder]

It could also be a biomechanical issue, in that you are activating your muscles in such a way that is overusing your hamstrings.

 

[elkeaterco]

Supplements never helped me a ton. We do some insane PT at work in full gear and I can relate to being SORE for days. The three best things that have helped us is.

1. Drink a shit ton of water 1.5 gallons plus
2. Spend the time to stretch and learn how to use a foam roller. There are lots of great Youtube videos to get better with it. It's a skill just like everything in life.
3. Sleep, I suck at getting plenty of this but it's the only time your body can repair itself.

 

[Poser]

Supplements never helped me a ton. We do some insane PT at work in full gear and I can relate to being SORE for days. The three best things that have helped us is.

1. Drink a shit ton of water 1.5 gallons plus
2. Spend the time to stretch and learn how to use a foam roller. There are lots of great Youtube videos to get better with it. It's a skill just like everything in life.
3. Sleep, I suck at getting plenty of this but it's the only time your body can repair itself.

I've long subscribed to the "drink as much water as you can" practice as well. Hard training certainly requires much more water than a sedentary person or one who does moderate exercise, but, some of the reading I have done recently has led me to believe that drinking excessive amount of water can work against you in both recovery and performance because of the dilution of nutrients and minerals. For example, if you over dilute with water, the effects of BCAAs in the bloodstream is diminished. From what I've read, your thirst will tell you exactly how much water you need. If you are thirsty, drink until you are not thirsty. Overkill and pro hydration, however, may be working against you.

 

[elkeaterco]

I've long subscribed to the "drink as much water as you can" practice as well. Hard training certainly requires much more water than a sedentary person or one who does moderate exercise, but, some of the reading I have done recently has led me to believe that drinking excessive amount of water can work against you in both recovery and performance because of the dilution of nutrients and minerals. For example, if you over dilute with water, the effects of BCAAs in the bloodstream is diminished. From what I've read, your thirst will tell you exactly how much water you need. If you are thirsty, drink until you are not thirsty. Overkill and pro hydration, however, may be working against you.

I have read that too. However, for me at least. Drinking loads of water, even when I'm not thirsty has been the most effective tool to fight fatigue. It's all a learning curve figuring out your personal physiology.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

 

[307]

The first question to answer is whether there is a problem or merely the perception of a problem and how do you know that there's a problem. Leg fatigue after hiking in the mountains may simply be because hiking in the mountains causes leg fatigue.

If there is an actual problem, then is it a strength problem, a conditioning problem, a neurologic problem, or a mobility problem.

Based on what you've stated, it's not likely a lack of strength, so a strength solution wouldn't help. Strength training is the antidote to weakness, which is different than fatigue, though sometimes confusing to differentiate.

I find it unlikely that it's a mobility problem since it occurs with hiking and running which require very little in terms of mobility so mobility solutions are unlikely to help.

It could be a neurologic problem, but that's well beyond the scope of this forum. The fact that you have localized this to one particular muscle, makes me think there may be more symptoms than fatigue as fatigue isn't that specific of a sensation.

If I'm being forced to guess, I think it's a conditioning problem, despite the fact that you do a ton of conditioning work... You do a lot of whole body conditioning work, but not much running/hiking. Perhaps your adaptations to training are simply not specific to the muscle patterns and metabolism of prolonged hiking/running (Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand). CrossFit does not, by itself, prepare people to run fast marathons...

Another brief thought, have you experimented with your diet? I know that people claim that paleo is fine for endurance, but, if you look at what the best endurance athletes do, I don't think you'll find paleo... Perhaps more carbohydrate may improve aerobic performance.

Anyway, my $.02

 

[307]

Also, there is no such thing as an eccentric fiber. Eccentric and concentric contractions are actions of the same fibers.

 

[Shawn Hultquist]

On my long days I take a tsp of baking soda. thats an old school enduro trick it neutralizes all the acid in your body, prevents lactic acid build up, you dont have that bloated feeling after a few burps, and you'll stop cramping. the recipe is on the side of the box.


Rest would also be a really good thing. maybe take a week off you might be surprised at the results



Shawn