2 lost elk and conclusions.

[bummer7580]

This year because I didn't draw any limited entry elk tags (love hunting rut crazed big bulls) I was helping an outfitter friend with his hunters. The first evening we had a hunter who was new to elk hunting in an area we had seen elk that morning. As we watched a sage clearing I continued quietly coaching the hunter that elk live in the bottom third of their body and try to place bullet close behind the front leg. About an hour before sundown a good bull stepped out closer than we were expecting at 160yds. The hunter was shooting off of sticks and had taken time to get comfortable. The hunter asked us if this was a good bull and we said to shoot when we stop it. I cow called and the bull locked up quartering slightly toward us.
At the shot the bull started moving to our left stumbling. After it went about 30 yds I stopped it with a cow call, the hunter shot again missing high left. The elk then turned back and was hit with the 3rd shot which sounded like a gut shot and the fourth shot was a miss. He then made it back into the quakies and the thick brush. I started having a crappy feeling and after 2 days we gave up the search. The hunter was using a .270 with 140 grain mono bullets.
The second troubling experience happened to an experienced hunter in camp who is also a great guide. After 17 years he drew a great tag and spent the summer patterning an incredible bull. On day 5 the bull finally presented a shot at a bit over 400 yds. At the shot the bull fell, got up, fell, got up into the brush and you guessed it was never seen again. My friend passed on numerous other bulls to concentrate on finding the wounded bull. At seasons end all he had was tag soup. The rifle he used was a .270. The guy handloads and is a good shot.
These 2 experiences caused me to reflect on my years of shooting elk and what conclusions I could draw to prevent problems again. Understand these are personal opinions I plan to follow and I realize many people will have different opinions, not looking for an argument. First- I will be adamant to hunters about where to hit elk, bottom third behind front leg on a broadside. Second- I will personally hunt with nothing smaller than my 7mm magnum with 160 grain or heavier lead bullets. After this year I may try 175 gr Nosler partitions. Third- I will limit my self to no shot longer than 400 yds and then only if I can shoot prone over a pack. The best bull I have ever shot at was facing me at 220 yds. I was sitting but wasn't using a rest. He fell at the shot and when I had worked my way over to him through the brush he was gone. My rifle was a 270 with a mono copper bullet. I am the one that pulled the trigger and the lost bull was my fault. It had taken 12 yrs to draw that tag.
This post is a little long but I hope it might help some new hunters. I realize other hunters have different ideas, do what's right for you.

 

[Geewhiz]

I would love to see this thread go in the learning direction vs. the slamming on bad shooters/small calibers direction.

Lots of good info out there of what not to do. Fact is, at times I feel that there is nothing I would have done differently, but unfortunate things still happen. Elk are incredibly tough animals.

I shot a bull with my bow a few years ago, double lunged him with a perfect shot. Bull was found 2 days later dead 1.25 miles away with an arrow through both lungs. I did the autopsy, it was smelly. Not really sure what I should have learned from that. Just the way it is I guess.

 

[Next Ridge]

No big disagreement with this. I always say shoot to what you are comfortable with...but I find most people over estimate that. One day, two shots on target at 500yds and that is the new “comfort range”... Need to do 19/20 at least twice at a given range to say that is a comfortable range in my opinion.

I agree with shot placement behind shoulder/leg. I saw some threads earlier about “shooting through the shoulder/blade”. That seems like utter nonsense.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

I’ve killed many elk with my .270, my last bull took 3 shots with the browning Controlled expansion bullets, he was walking dead after the first shot, I put holes in them til they drop, and if they drop with one shot a lot of times I hit them again anyways. I’ve seen elk lost with many calibers, I’ve killed them with my 270 in Remington corelokts 150gr, Winchester super X 150gr, Hornady SST 140gr (had loads), Browning 140gr, currently I’m shooting a 338 now wanted a little more distance with Barnes vortex, haven’t been able to kill with it (2 more days to make it happen).

My max on elk with my 270 is 350, even then I feel the energy isn’t enough sometimes, I try to stay around 1300 ft/lbs for elk and check how much ft/lbs bullets need for expansion. I’ve learned and may be wrong, and some others, I’m sure have seen other results but full copper bullets sometimes can’t expand at closer ranges.

Short story had a client bust a bull at 50 yards with a 300 win Mag all copper bullet, seen the hit, bull looked around like nothing, told the client hit him again, he said no good shot he’s gonna go down, after me almost slapping him telling him to shoot again he did, bull slammed to the ground, he jumped up high fived me, I said 1 more he ain’t kicking like he’s dieing, (bull was down like he was bedded and seemed like he was still holding his head off the ground) bout then the bull gained his feet and bolted. He came out at 450 yards in a clearing, I was in the spotter from glassing the upper meadow earlier and said that’s him hit him now. He dropped him again an this time legs out, when we skinned him first shot went between the ribs and didn’t expand until it hit a rib on opposite side, second shot same thing just higher up. Third shot had full expansion but he was high and hit spine.

I like the heaviest bullet I can with my weapon, but wish you coulda found them to see if the results were weird shots or no expansion or what. I’d have to say ur first bull has to be dead, second bull is a tough call that’s a long shot with a 270 (personal opinion)

I upgraded to 338 just because like I said I wanna have that distance if needed


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[BigAntlerGetter]

No big disagreement with this. I always say shoot to what you are comfortable with...but I find most people over estimate that. One day, two shots on target at 500yds and that is the new “comfort range”... Need to do 19/20 at least twice at a given range to say that is a comfortable range in my opinion.

I agree with shot placement behind shoulder/leg. I saw some threads earlier about “shooting through the shoulder/blade”. That seems like utter nonsense.

I’ve seen the trends over the years go from hit em in the pocket, to bust their spine, to neck shots, to break their front shoulders. I’m completely against shoulder shooting, why waste meat! And have the issue of a bullet possibly blowing up on the shoulder, spine shots are a hard one to high ur just hurting animals little low and you hit the so called void (no I do not believe there is a void)


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[Justinjs]

Do you think it's a combo of shot placement and smaller caliber? I've heard to use the gun you shoot the best with, but elk aren't small.
Almost all cartridges seem lose tons of energy after 400yds, good point.

 

[Wrench]

That's 750 yards with less rifle than a 270.

It's the pilots fault would be my guess.

 

[BAKPAKR]

That's 750 yards with less rifle than a 270.

It's the pilots fault would be my guess.

View attachment 228833

77 gr TMK out of a 223?

 

[MTPipeliner]

I prefer the heaviest bullet I can get and keep shooting until they’re down, as others have mentioned I’ve had elk go down on the first shot only to stand up again so if their head is still up I don’t consider them down for the count.

years ago my brother and I hit a calf on an antlerless hunt, the initial shot wasn’t good but there was a lot of snow on the ground so we were able to follow it. It took us two days to catch up to it and finish it off. Even the little ones are tough as hell.

the first bull I killed was a spike that someone else had shot several days before. When I skinned him he had two bullets stuck in his shoulder/ just behind shoulder from the other hunter and the meat was all bloodshot and had green puss in it. Both shots were well placed but didn’t penetrate nearly well enough to kill him.

for what it’s worth, I shoot a 7 mag, 175 grain core lokt bullets and the bulk of the elk I’ve killed have been 100 yards or less.

 

[Wrench]

77 gr TMK out of a 223?

Just for that I'm gonna go kill a bull with a sub par rifle in the morning.

 

[Gila]

I have not shot enough up until now to handloaded. I was using Hornady light magnum with interbonds in my .270 for years. Ran out of ammo and they quit the light magnum line, so used Superformance with 130 gr GMX. This year was the first time I have shot an animal with a copper bullet. I shot the bull a tick over 200 yards which is an easy shot for me. I was standing and used a tree branch for a rest. It was a perfectly placed shot which passed through. The bull didn't go 25 feet. The exit hole was the size of a nickel. I was not at all impressed with the wound channel though. I am definitely going to stick with bonded core bullets. I am going to give 140 gr a try for the elk. Long range Accubonds are a cool concept. I think a .270 win is plenty of medicine to harvest an elk at an ethical range.

 

[wapitibob]

Broz had some good thoughts on rifle caliber and Elk. He sees like 70 a year gettin shot.

 

[Marble]

My .02

I do not like the smaller (less than 7mm and preferably magnum) cartridges, or lighter bullets used with Elk. This is my experience with multiple hunters of average capabilities. Not summertime who is a great shot.

I like the heavier bullets. I have seen much better success with heavier bullets and all of our losses were with lighter bullets.

Again, for those who kill elk with something out of the category I described, I have too. But I haven't lost one with the heavier bullets.

The last category is angle. Non broadside shots marginalize success. Even a slightly quartered to shot is tough.

My suggestion for successful elk killing choices is a magnum size cartridge, on the heavier size for the cartdridge.

I've probably seen 80 to 100 elk in the last 20 years get killed. The couple we lost fit into the categories I described.

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[Ross]

more often than not the shot simply is not good enough or what we think it is when an animal is lost, with any weapon...the weapon is only as good as the one operating it...I’ve always shot elk till they pile up and I’ve had my share of bad shots and it was not the weapon simply my execution error...practice and do the best you can no one is perfect

 

[Wrench]

I have a hard time believing that .044" and or the weight of a piece of chewing gum is the make or break point.

Don't expect miracles if you push a bullet too fast or too slow.....but the sweet spot in the middle works great, especially if you hit the middle of the middle.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

It is not the caliber. Lots of elk are mortally wounded by larger calibers yet are never recovered. Also, lots of elk are successfully harvested using smaller calibers. Check your ego and use what you can shoot well and consistently. Better to hit the elk in the lungs with your "wimpy" 6.5 CM than hit the elk in the butt with your "manly" 338 WM. Seen too many folks that feel they have to shoot magnums to kill an animal. These same folks tend to be so scared of their rifle that they literally cannot kill a stationary 8.5"x11" piece of paper at 100 yards shooting prone off a bipod and rear rest.

Hunters should try to adjust their shots based upon the bullet they are using. I personally would not take a lung shot using a mono and nor would I use a match type bullet on the shoulder. Sometimes this is easier said than done based upon physical exertion, adrenaline, shot angles, etc.

Not everyone invests the required energy in recovering their animal. You cannot recovery every animal but more folks should try. Walk the woods right after archery elk season and use your nose. It is a sad state of affairs finding those bulls on the ground.

Every animal is different. Some die easily while others refuse to die. Stay on target and be prepared for a follow up shot or two or three. Otherwise you may just be inadvertently celebrating the undue pain and potential miserable death that you just inflicted on your target animal.

Folks should also practice real-world shooting positions more often. I've yet to see a bench, chair, sandbags, lead sled, etc in the woods. I have in Texas...

 

[Str8shooter]

A couple quotes from Chuck Hawks are relevant here.

"Bullet placement is the most important factor in killing power. (Memorize that sentence!) "

"The truth is that most hunters simply have not shot enough elk, or observed enough elk killed, to be able to draw valid conclusions from their personal experience."

"I would much rather see an elk hunter carrying a .270 that he can shoot well, instead of a .300 Magnum that causes him to flinch. Elk are big, vital animals, but they are not indestructible. Use a reasonably adequate caliber within its energy and trajectory limits, an appropriate bullet and most of all get that bullet into a vital spot!"

Elk Cartridges

 

[Marble]

Bullet placement is the most important factor, ill agree with what was said above.

The reason for the bigger, heavier bullets is their ability to cause more damage and continue deeper with more energy. Its for MOST hunters in MOST situations. Its for when the shit hits the fan. A marginalized shot.

We all know shit happens when hunting. Most hunters shoot their rifles one time or not at all before their hunt and even have a mix of ammo in their bag. This conversation is for them. Not guys like most of us here that handload, practice, have drop charts and know how far we can shoot and kill animals.



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[5MilesBack]

After this year I may try 175 gr Nosler partitions.

I hand loaded 175gr Partitions for years. The last bull I shot with a rifle was a 5x5 17 years ago. The first shot was at 25 yards, the second at about 8 yards, the third at about 10, and the fourth at about 30 before he finally went down and stayed there. Every one of those hits was a kill shot on their own......but sometimes elk just don't want to go down. They have an amazing will to live. But man they drop dead fast from an arrow through both lungs.

 

[hobbes]

I've not killed a lot of elk. Those that I have killed have been with a bow or a 7 mag shooting 175 grain factory bullets. I've never understood the fascination with shooting elk with small calibers and light ammo. It's like it's a badge of honor to say I killed a bull with a rubber band and a spit wad and he only took two steps. Maybe I've grown too old.