.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[RedRidge]

Nothing new here. 60 yards, high shoulder, 77 tmk hand load, instant lights out. Maybe took a step.

 

[brentr9]

Anybody used the AAC 75 gr Black Tip Sabre extensively? Maybe it's been mentioned and I missed it.

We've tried it on one hog and a WT doe. Impressive performance on both. Cheap enough to shoot a lot of. Accurate enough in my Savage Trail Hunter, but not in my Cz600 Trail.

We’ve killed a handful of southern Alabama whitetail doe with them. All impact velocities have been >2200fps. They’ve functioned fine. We’re getting ~2660fps out of 16” AR’s. TMKs seem to be better, but the results have been the same.

 

[robtattoo]

Pissy little .223 does it again

226yds, folded him on the spot.

 

[Hardly_Hangin]

9th data point, public land mountain buck with 223 gasser shooting 75gr Speer gold dots. 60-80 yard frontal shot. Poi was slightly right of center midway up

He reared back, mule kicked, ran about 20 yards, and crashed into a root ball so hard a root shaved off a patch of hair the size of my hands. Died within 3 seconds.

No autopsy pics but i did inspect. Top half of heart and the top half of both lungs were jellified. Chest cavity looked like vital tissue gulash.

My camp buddy commented how lucky i was he didn't end up in the next county over, and i really should hunt with at least get a 30 caliber. What do you guys think? Grin.

My tikka roughtech ember 30-06 is listed for sale now if anyone's interested!

 

[HairyScandinavian]

My camp buddy commented how lucky i was he didn't end up in the next county over, and i really should hunt with at least get a 30 caliber. What do you guys think? Grin.

Better to be lucky than good, right?

 

[Dust Rider]

Daughter got another with her Lil T3X .223. Doe was bedded and she got on the tripod and let one rip.
77gr. TMK Black Hills factory ammo. Hit high lungs and clipped spine. Doe just did a little leg kicking like a dog getting its belly rubbed and it was done. The kid has never shot a bedded animal, and she was so quick to spot, set up and shoot. Proud Papa for sure. Bonus: the Scythe killed another and didnt blow up!

 

[omicron1792]

Daughter got another with her Lil T3X .223. Doe was bedded and she got on the tripod and let one rip.
77gr. TMK Black Hills factory ammo. Hit high lungs and clipped spine. Doe just did a little leg kicking like a dog getting its belly rubbed and it was done. The kid has never shot a bedded animal, and she was so quick to spot, set up and shoot. Proud Papa for sure. Bonus: the Scythe killed another and didnt blow up!
View attachment 974431View attachment 974432View attachment 974435View attachment 974436

I mean look at the size of the holes through the ribs with that little bullet.

 

[2tuna]

I'm just here because:

1) I bought a tikka t3x in 223 yesterday 100% because of this thread, with the expectation my 270, 9.3, and 375 will never be fired again.

2) I wanted to be part of arguably the greatest thread in the history of the interweb.

Thank you

 

[Nomosendero]

9th data point, public land mountain buck with 223 gasser shooting 75gr Speer gold dots. 60-80 yard frontal shot. Poi was slightly right of center midway up

He reared back, mule kicked, ran about 20 yards, and crashed into a root ball so hard a root shaved off a patch of hair the size of my hands. Died within 3 seconds.

No autopsy pics but i did inspect. Top half of heart and the top half of both lungs were jellified. Chest cavity looked like vital tissue gulash.

My camp buddy commented how lucky i was he didn't end up in the next county over, and i really should hunt with at least get a 30 caliber. What do you guys think? Grin.

My tikka roughtech ember 30-06 is listed for sale now if anyone's interested!

View attachment 974061View attachment 974063

Wow, so your buddy would think a 7mm is too light!!

 

[Deere_Man]

I'm just here because:

1) I bought a tikka t3x in 223 yesterday 100% because of this thread, with the expectation my 270, 9.3, and 375 will never be fired again.

2) I wanted to be part of arguably the greatest thread in the history of the interweb.

Thank you

Hit us with the particulars….

What model T3X? Barrel length? Mounts/scope choice?

Details matter.

 

[Mike Islander]

Right, thats why you guys never talk about velocity, LOL. You don't talk about ft. lbs. of energy, thats fact.
I wouldn't either, esp. at 430yds. I've taken more deer with 5.56/223 than most of you Xperts.
Not a doubt in my mind. Sounds like most of you are on a mission to collect "data". Sad.

Bot

 

[wyldstallyn]

Just so it's clear, 7mm remington magnum, 300 winchester magnum, 30-06, 300 PRC, 300 RUM, 300 weatherby... Are all pea shooters. Those are all small bore rifles. You are not in the cool kids club, you aren't any more special that a guy shooting a 223, accept the fact that you have a small bore AND YOU LIKE IT!

 

[wyldstallyn]

My contribution to this thread is a Savage model 24 222 remington. 50gr softpoint @ 50 yards on a #200 white tail buck. Hit him in the vitals, he did a donkey kick, ran 30 yards and died.

 

[crazygrizz]

Having read through this thread and the other kill threads I've came up with a question/idea.

So we know bullets matter vs head stamps. That each bullet has a velocity minimum to work as intended. It seems that as long as you hit the right spot at the minimum+ required velocity that animals die.

Seems like we don't even need the lbs of energy anymore? What's the minimum force to break the hide at 1 side with a .223 caliber projectile and a 77gr weight? Probably at a lot slower speeds than anyone even hits animals at.

 

[RockAndSage]

Seems like we don't even need the lbs of energy anymore? What's the minimum force to break the hide at 1 side with a .223 caliber projectile and a 77gr weight? Probably at a lot slower speeds than anyone even hits animals at.

Not sure of force needed, but the LBS of energy die-hards never seem to ask that of bowhunters...

Biggest issue is ensuring the bullet has enough velocity at impact for its design to open up. Different designs require more or less velocity, and have more or less fragmentation and tissue disruption. Mono bullets seem to need the most velocity to consistently open up, and have the least breakup/frag/tissue disruption. It's just the opposite for tipped match bullets. It seems there's a bit of a consensus here that around 1800FPS impact velocity is roughly the accepted lower end of impact velocity for the tipped match bullets to do their job effectively, but there's at least one elk kill documented here with a 77gr TMK at 1400ish FPS impact velocity.

 

[43.6N]

Having read through this thread and the other kill threads I've came up with a question/idea.

So we know bullets matter vs head stamps. That each bullet has a velocity minimum to work as intended. It seems that as long as you hit the right spot at the minimum+ required velocity that animals die.

Seems like we don't even need the lbs of energy anymore? What's the minimum force to break the hide at 1 side with a .223 caliber projectile and a 77gr weight? Probably at a lot slower speeds than anyone even hits animals at.

Think more along the lines of what’s the force on the bullet jacket needed to rupture and expand.

 

[crazygrizz]

Think more along the lines of what’s the force on the bullet jacket needed to rupture and expand.

If it's taken further imagine we had a 60gr bullet that ruptures at 600 fps. Would that still be an effective killer? It bullets get to that level we might be arguing over minimum bullet weights for enough material to even work. Or we start shooting lasers and arguing over batteries/capacitors/etc.

 

[43.6N]

If it's taken further imagine we had a 60gr bullet that ruptures at 600 fps. Would that still be an effective killer? It bullets get to that level we might be arguing over minimum bullet weights for enough material to even work. Or we start shooting lasers and arguing over batteries/capacitors/etc.

40gr Vmax seems to get it done on coyotes.

But yeah, if it’s in the heart, or disrupts the autonomic plexus really small mass bullets realistically should get it done.

I think the number of bullets though that are built to correctly do this shrinks dramatically as you go down in weight.

 

[Taudisio]

If it's taken further imagine we had a 60gr bullet that ruptures at 600 fps. Would that still be an effective killer? It bullets get to that level we might be arguing over minimum bullet weights for enough material to even work. Or we start shooting lasers and arguing over batteries/capacitors/etc.

It would depend on what the wound channel looks like at a given velocity. IMO the ideal wound channel looks like a football. Enters, expands to disrupt the football pattern, and what is left of the bullet falls out of the other side of my intended target.

You can have a bullet that does just such thing around 1800-3000fps, but below 1800fps, it may not consistently expand, thus not giving the football shape. Above 3000 it may expand too much and not penetrate deep enough to exit the far side of the animal. There are bullets that you can push the velocity scale to one side or another and still get desired results. Also, this doesn’t mean the bullet won’t kill outside of those parameters, it just may not be ideal.

Using your hypothetical of 600fps, and if that velocity it gives my hypothetical perfect expansion, I would need to figure out what velocity would be too slow, and what velocity would be too fast to give me the wound channel I want to see. This would let me know what MV I would need to achieve the impact velocity I need at the given ranges I plan to be shooting at game. The MV needed will dictate the cartridge and barrel length I will need.

Physics and the bullet material/design options we have, won’t allow us to have something that works from 500fps-5000fps. If there were such an option and it was, reasonably priced, accurate in common rifles, and had a high enough bc (we will say g1 of at least .350), it would be silly to use anything else.

 

[Thegman]

If it's taken further imagine we had a 60gr bullet that ruptures at 600 fps. Would that still be an effective killer? It bullets get to that level we might be arguing over minimum bullet weights for enough material to even work. Or we start shooting lasers and arguing over batteries/capacitors/etc.

Maker Bullets make Sub-sonic expanding mono 223 bullets, so I'm sure they'd "make it through the hide" part, but doubt any would be reliable deer killers...but maybe? I've never heard any reports from anyone that has actually used them.