a new hunter 'advocacy' group

[mtnprst]

Were is the loss of funding made up?

Obvious answer is to increase nonresident tag prices. A limited draw non-resident elk tag in Wyo costs around $1300 now. Commissioner elk tags that are auctioned in 2017 averaged $18,000 each. Others include a portion of a statewide sales tax that goes to the G&F, charging onx maps, gohunt.com and other companies which use harvest and other state data for profit (they use it for free, now), etc.

 

[mtnprst]

So how do you propose they enforce the rules you want? For the record, I'm not in agreement with you but want to hear how you think these regulations would be helpful in any way.

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We're not disputing that enforcing maximum shot distance restrictions will be a challenge, but no more so than many other hunting regulations such as not shooting from a vehicle, poaching, wanton waste and destruction, etc. If not directly observed by a game warden or other enforcement officer, violations of these common regulations are reported to the authorities and investigated.

As well, despite the enforcement challenge, most hunters don't shoot from a vehicle or poach. The same will be true of a maximum shot distance restrictions - most hunters will respect the rule.

 

[mtnprst]

Me too!!

Actually, Nevada is one of the states we represent. Nevada allots 10% of it's elk tags to non-residents. Wyoming, 16% of limited draw.

 

[Gunnersdad49]

Ok Mr. Purist,
You are opposed to technology that allows hunters to target game outside of their zone of detection, but not opposed to programs like Go Hunt and OnX, because they are taxable?

Your positions leave a lot of people, myself included, scratching their heads.

I have repeatedly, in competition, with a sub-14pound rifle, made first round hits on an elk-vitals sized target at over 1200 yards. I practice. A lot. I have never taken a shot on game past 334 yards. Ranged with a laser. But your presumption that you know what is ethical or not for me to shoot at? Preposterous. If I want to shoot an antelope at 600 yards, or a gopher at 500, what business is it if yours?
Why don’t we quit conceding to the anti hunting crowd and join together as hunters?

 

[mtnprst]

I will say that for every hunter and every given weather and situational condition, there is a distance at which popping a shot off at game becomes unethical. If not for accuracy considerations, then for the hunting/sporting concept of fair chase.

Problem is that technology is allowing for shots at greater distances, and more and more guys are overestimating situational conditions and their ability. Guys are so invested in their hunt and trying to get a shot at anything that they justify any shot and ethics get marginalized.

Techology is overwhelming and surpassing animal defenses and social media and hunter egos are overwhelming fair chase.

Social media, TV shows, advertising dollars for gun makers and web sites, "smart" gun scopes and the like are clearly driving an increasing need to boast about distance and how capable one is at distance. Now that folks are popping off shots at elk and muley with "primitive" muzzle loaders at 400-600+ yards, it is black and white clear that muzzle loaders are no longer a handicap compared to decades of high power rifle statistics. At this point, I have to question why muzzle loaders even need their own season.

When folks are high power rifle shooting elk and muley at close to and sometimes far beyond 1000 yds, we should all ask ourselves what the distance is where shooting is no longer fair because animals can no longer use their hearing, sight and smell for defense?

Given the above, there WILL be a day when states lean in and dictate terms and definitions on ethics.

We hunters as a group are guilty of being so self righteous that we have had ZERO will to self regulate. No one seems willing to stand up and dictate ethics for those who lack them when compared to a general median of the overall population. No one seems willing to state what is or is not Fair Chase. With this as a backdrop, states and game agencies will ultimately step in guided by those with greater will and louder voices than ours.

Yes, a 300 yard limit for high power rifle is ridiculous, but 700 might not be. How much of a handicap is a muzzle loader anymore, and why do they still need their own season during archery season when folks are posting and boasting about popping shots at 400-600yds with them? It is undisputable that those distances have been traditional ethical high power rifle distances for decades.

Say what you will and howl in protest all you want, but at some point there will be ethical terms dictated and we can either get in front of them and make recommendations or have them dictated to us. If dictated to us, then maybe they'll be 300yds for rifle, 100yds for black powder and 50 for archery... because we, as a group were so self righteous that we were unwilling to offer any terms at all.


JL

Our choice of the 400 yard limit isn't arbitrary. According to the Wy G&F, after 400 yards ungulates have a rapidly declining ability to detect the hunter. The essence of Fair Chase is that the game has a chance to detect the hunter, and if detected, elude him. Any technology which tips this scale in the favor of the hunter is unethical.

In 2018 the Wy G&F department completed a White Paper on technology and hunting - it's an excellent, thought-provoking resource - and where we found the 400-yard limit.

Idaho tried to address extreme range hunting in 1993 via regulation. Specifically, the regulation enacted in 1993 prohibits the weight for the weapon, scope and sling to be in excess of 16 pounds. At the time, extreme range rifles were exceedingly heavy, and this regulation was an attempt to prohibit their use. However, current firearm and optics technology allows for extreme range weapons weighing far below this 16 pound limit.

 

[twall13]

On the one hand you talk like your first priority is fair chase and looking out for the animals best interest. On the other hand you want to limit non resident hunters who bring in alot of money for wildlife conservation so locals have more opportunity, which leads to less wildlife funding so you can have your experience the way you want it. Which is it? Are you concerned about preserving the animals or your hunting experience? In my mind your ideas conflict with each other. I noticed you want to raise non resident prices to try to cover the reduction in non resident licenses rather than trying to make it up with the resident hunters.

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[mtnprst]

Ok Mr. Purist,
You are opposed to technology that allows hunters to target game outside of their zone of detection, but not opposed to programs like Go Hunt and OnX, because they are taxable?

Your positions leave a lot of people, myself included, scratching their heads.

I have repeatedly, in competition, with a sub-14pound rifle, made first round hits on an elk-vitals sized target at over 1200 yards. I practice. A lot. I have never taken a shot on game past 334 yards. Ranged with a laser. But your presumption that you know what is ethical or not for me to shoot at? Preposterous. If I want to shoot an antelope at 600 yards, or a gopher at 500, what business is it if yours?
Why don’t we quit conceding to the anti hunting crowd and join together as hunters?

The issue isn't the hunter's ability to make the shot, it's the game's ability to detect the hunter. Do you think it's ethical to kill game outside of the distance it can detect you? Hunting isn't shooting. Shooting sports are something different.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Idaho is currently soliciting public comment on a new rule which would allow it's fish and game commission to restrict the number of non resident OTC tags because of complaints by residents of overcrowding. This issue has also been raised by resident hunters in Colorado. It's a growing issue amongst many western state resident hunters.

So how are you going to enforce a long range shot rule?

I suppose you use a hand made trad bow huh?

Your just a selfish sob that wants to divide hunters.

 

[mtnprst]

On the one hand you talk like your first priority is fair chase and looking out for the animals best interest. On the other hand you want to limit non resident hunters who bring in alot of money for wildlife conservation so locals have more opportunity, which leads to less wildlife funding so you can have your experience the way you want it. Which is it? Are you concerned about preserving the animals or your hunting experience? In my mind your ideas conflict with each other. I noticed you want to raise non resident prices to try to cover the reduction in non resident licenses rather than trying to make it up with the resident hunters.

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I'd be happy if Wyoming dropped to the 10% non-resident allocation you enjoy in Utah. By your argument here, do you favor increasing the nonresident tag allocation in your state to increase G&F funding and conservation?

 

[Gunnersdad49]

Is it sporting to use boots? Game can’t wear boots.

Is it sporting to bring food with you? Game can’t buy granola bars.

The point is that your idea of sporting is how you should live your life. It is not how you should attempt to force others to live theirs.

Many catch and release flyfishermen think trout should all be hooked on barbless dry flies and released. They aren’t propping themselves up as the voice of all fishermen and the morally correct only way to ethically catch fish.

The pushback you have received so far should be a good indicator that your point of view doesn’t represent all hunters.

 

[Gunnersdad49]

I use the word “sporting” instead of your “ethical”.

How far can a mouse see? How far can an eagle see? If an eagle can detect a mouse outside of the mouse’s range of detection, and swoop in and grab a mouse before being detected, is the eagle unethical?

Get over yourself.

 

[twall13]

The issue isn't the hunter's ability to make the shot, it's the game's ability to detect the hunter. Do you think it's ethical to kill game outside of the distance it can detect you? Hunting isn't shooting. Shooting sports are something different.

I don't think the animal cares whether it's being shot from 20 ft. away or 800 yards away. Either way it's dead if the shot is will placed. If you want to pat yourself on the back feeling like you were more fair to the animal by getting closer that's great, but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone in every situation. You want to make it fair for the animals grab a knife and sneak in real close, after all, your bow is technology giving you an advantage over the animals so you should probably eliminate that as well.

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[BRTreedogs]

I'd be happy if Wyoming dropped to the 10% non-resident allocation you enjoy in Utah. By your argument here, do you favor increasing the nonresident tag allocation in your state to increase G&F funding and conservation?

Maybe if you shut your business down the non resident hunters wont have the fitness to get to your spot.

 

[twall13]

I'd be happy if Wyoming dropped to the 10% non-resident allocation you enjoy in Utah. By your argument here, do you favor increasing the nonresident tag allocation in your state to increase G&F funding and conservation?

I favor the biologists managing tag allocations to balance wildlife funding and herd management and opportunity, not hunters dictating tag allocations to benefit themselves and exclude others.

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[mtnprst]

Is it sporting to use boots? Game can’t wear boots.

Is it sporting to bring food with you? Game can’t buy granola bars.

The point is that your idea of sporting is how you should live your life. It is not how you should attempt to force others to live theirs.

Many catch and release flyfishermen think trout should all be hooked on barbless dry flies and released. They aren’t propping themselves up as the voice of all fishermen and the morally correct only way to ethically catch fish.

The pushback you have received so far should be a good indicator that your point of view doesn’t represent all hunters.

Mountain Pursuit represents western-state resident, subsistence-based hunters who value Fair Chase, feel strongly about wildlife conservation and want to preserve the future of hunting - a rural activity in a country which is rapidly becoming urbanized.

 

[Gunnersdad49]

Cool sound bite.
Didn’t address any of the points I brought up.

Western based? Shit pal, I was born and raised in Alaska, I’m doubting you are representing anywhere more “West” than that. Subsistence? Let’s talk about that for a bit. How long have you lived in the bush? Have you ever gill netted for a winter’s worth of food for you and your dogs?

You aren’t looking to preserve anything. You are looking to try and make a name for yourself and grab your 15 minutes of fame at the cost of stigmatizing all hunting that you don’t do.

You are a classic example of a kid that can’t win a game so he takes his ball and goes home. But you also add in calling the cops because the other kids are still having fun.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Mountain Pursuit represents western-state resident, subsistence-based hunters who value Fair Chase, feel strongly about wildlife conservation and want to preserve the future of hunting - a rural activity in a country which is rapidly becoming urbanized.

You represent yourself.
You dont represent me at all.
Just devide hunters in any way and watch the antis eat us up.

 

[Ratbeetle]

Mtnprst, I'd like to hear you explain how you reconcile being a "conservation" org who is against bear baiting, which is arguably the best way to manage for healthy bear populations.

 

[Beckjhong]

I’m a new hunter. I have been taught to only take the shots that I know I can make solid hits on, and that this range is different for every person. No mention of only take the shots Rob Shaul tells me are acceptable.

Your rhetoric is based on opinion and you rest your laurels on a number gleaned from a white paper.

What if we all started donating a dollar to real hunter advocacy groups every time this guy spouts off?


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[DenverCountryBoy]

By your logic, camouflage, unscented soap, and sitting still are all unsporting as it makes it more difficult for the animals to detect and evade hunters.

Your logic is flawed.

You represent yourself, not western hunters as a whole, and certainly not me.