Arizona does away with auction tags

[BBob]

I’m sure Jimmy John is a good guy. I hold nothing against him. It was the outfitter/outfitters posting it all on social media for their benefit not Jimmy John’s that blew that all up.

 

[Steve O]

10-4 I think I misunderstood a little bit with the quoting stuff. I agree

 

[BBob]

I’ve dealt with USO bullys in AZ.

I dislike Taulman with a passion. IMO he’s at the forefront and the starter of all of this. Started in NM and imported to AZ where it has spread like the plague. I give his ranch the double finger every time I drive by

 

[MattB]

You misunderstood. I've seen plenty it. I’ve dealt with USO bullys in AZ. II’ve dealt with MB on a hunt in Utah. The point is the rich guys aren’t promoting all these posses and highlighting it and bringing attention to it, the outfitters are.

They aren’t promoting it, but it wouldn’t happen if they weren’t paying for it.

 

[BBob]

They aren’t promoting it, but it wouldn’t happen if they weren’t paying for it.

I wonder if after what happened with JJ if some of the guys might want to or now have a contract that can limit what type of and how much or how little media could be shared? They are being used as an advertisement and if they are paying for it they might want to have a legal say in the matter. I think that if I were in that position in todays world I would.

 

[MattB]

I wonder if after what happened with JJ if some of the guys might want to or now have a contract that can limit what type of and how much or how little media could be shared? They are being used as an advertisement and if they are paying for it they might want to have a legal say in the matter. I think that if I were in that position in todays world I would.

With Arizona doing away with the auction tags, I think the problem likely solved itself.

 

[BBob]

With Arizona doing away with the auction tags, I think the problem likely solved itself.

Are there not many other auction tags out there to be had? I know this thread was started with AZ in mind but my comment was auction tags in general.

 

[Jethro]

Are there not many other auction tags out there to be had? I know this thread was started with AZ in mind but my comment was auction tags in general.

WY has commissioners tags that are given to non-profits then either auctioned or raffled. Its a fairly even split between auction and raffle. Proceeds fund various things. Wildlife, habitat, wounded warriors, under privileged kids, feed the hungry. I hope nobody decides to mess with the nice program they have going.

Also have Governors tags but I've never heard anything about them. Good or bad.

 

[CorbLand]

For those saying it is “class envy” and “being mad at the guy in the Ferrari at the stop light.” The major difference here is that the average hunter doesnt supplement the funding for Ferrari that then someone comes in and uses their money to bypass the system and utilize.

Quite frankly, auction tags are directly in opposition to the North American Model of Conservation.

If you really think people spend this kind of money because they care, take away the ability to write it off on taxes and see if they still spend 750,000.00 for a deer tag. These auctions are a better indicator of how the economy did the previous year than what the Fed tells you.

Overall, I think the handful of tags are worth the funding they bring in but animals are owed by the people and if the people don’t want it, they can do away with it.

 

[wind gypsy]

 

[CorbLand]

View attachment 692643


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If this is directed at me, yes, I know what a tax write off is.

 

[wind gypsy]

If this is directed at me, yes, I know what a tax write off is.

Just a gif i think about when people bring up write offs, not meant to insinuate you dont know. I am curious how sure everyone is about these actually getting written off? My understanding is they could only write off the difference between what they paid and fair market value. What is "fair market value" for something that is proven to bring in 6 figures every year? Some of these high end tags do not have what seems like a defensible "market value" beyond what they brought in auctions the prior years. Also, say they are writing off near the entire thing, with max tax brackets that means they are still out of pocket for over half of the winning bid.

So let's say the bidder's all write it off and their spending appetite is only what their real cost is taking taxes saved via write off into account. How would blue collar hunters benefit from a tag that goes for $400k instead going for $200k if there were no tax benefits to reduce the $ hit for winning the auction tag? I don't see that as a win for anyone (besides maybe our national debt..).

 

[CorbLand]

Just a gif i think about when people bring up write offs, not meant to insinuate you dont know. I am curious how sure everyone is about these actually getting written off? My understanding is they could only write off the difference between what they paid and fair market value. What is "fair market value" for something that is proven to bring in 6 figures every year? Some of these high end tags do not have what seems like a defensible "market value" beyond what they brought in auctions the prior years. Also, say they are writing off near the entire thing, with max tax brackets that means they are still out of pocket for over half of the winning bid.

So let's say the bidder's all write it off and their spending appetite is only what their real cost is taking taxes saved via write off into account. How would blue collar hunters benefit from a tag that goes for $400k instead going for $200k if there were no tax benefits to reduce the $ hit for winning the auction tag? I don't see that as a win for anyone (besides maybe our national debt..).

You are correct that they can only write the difference off. How the fair market value is determined, someone that knows would have to chime in, because it’s not me.

As for the amount out pocket it basically comes down to how much of a check I want to write to Uncle Sam or to myself? Just this year I did this. I could have wrote a check to Uncle Sam for 1200 bucks or I could move 4000 to my HSA. It “cost” me 2800 to save 1200 but I retained all of that 4000 in the end. That is exactly what the people buying these tags are doing. They spend money out of pocket to save themselves money. Yes, it costs them money but they at least get something for the money.

How many are writing it off? Don’t know but I would bet that number is very close to 100 percent.

Getting rid of the tax write would not benefit anyone. I am just saying anyone that thinks people value the animals at what people are paying for these tags is wrong. They value them at what fair market value is, everything above that is to “save” on taxes. They have to write the check either way, might as well write it to someone other than Uncle Sam. Take that away, they won’t care as much.

This is not being spoke in absolutes as I am sure there are some that will pay more than fair market value and the tax write off but I would say that the number of people who do that is small and the amount they will “over pay” is pretty small too.

 

[MattB]

For those saying it is “class envy” and “being mad at the guy in the Ferrari at the stop light.” The major difference here is that the average hunter doesnt supplement the funding for Ferrari that then someone comes in and uses their money to bypass the system and utilize.

Quite frankly, auction tags are directly in opposition to the North American Model of Conservation.

If you really think people spend this kind of money because they care, take away the ability to write it off on taxes and see if they still spend 750,000.00 for a deer tag. These auctions are a better indicator of how the economy did the previous year than what the Fed tells you.

Overall, I think the handful of tags are worth the funding they bring in but animals are owed by the people and if the people don’t want it, they can do away with it.

You overlooked the part of the analogy where the guy buying the Ferrari provides funding to improve other people’s chances of getting their own Ferrari’s in the future. Seems odd for someone to deny class envy by focusing on the negative while ignoring the benefit that public draw hunters receive from auction tags.

The guy who bought the CO sheep tag at auction this year ($600K) is also allegedly paying $400K - more than most auction sheep tags garner - for access and guiding which cannot be written off. I can’t think of a more relevant data point to address your question of how the ultra-rich would behave if they could not get a tax write-off for these tags.

 

[CorbLand]

You overlooked the part of the analogy where the guy buying the Ferrari provides funding to improve other people’s chances of getting their own Ferrari’s in the future. Seems odd for someone to deny class envy by focusing on the negative while ignoring the benefit that public draw hunters receive from auction tags.

The guy who bought the CO sheep tag at auction this year ($600K) is also allegedly paying $400K - more than most auction sheep tags garner - for access and guiding which cannot be written off. I can’t think of a more relevant data point to address your question of how the ultra-rich would behave if they could not get a tax write-off for these tags.

But you can go back through this entire thread and nobody has been able to definitively show that the funding has improved hunting for everyone. The only thing that anyone has really posted is that all the funding goes back to AZFG.

These tags are continually going for more and more money, yet in many western states tags, herd numbers and seasons are consistently being be reduced and shortened.

As for the extra 400K being spent on access and guiding. Does that go back to the state fish and game or does the landowner/guide service get a really nice Christmas this year?

I bought a raffle ticket to win a sled on Friday. If I won it, I would have had to buy a trailer, pickup and a few other things. Yes, sometimes you have/get to spend money to facilitate things.

I will still stand by my opinion that many of the people buying these tags do not actually care about the herd or hunting. They care about the tax write off and the one animal they kill.

 

[Steve O]

Yep. I’m sure the extra $11,00,000 has not helped a lick. I’m also sure there are 11,000 people lined up with $1000 bills to give out to biologist for THEIR projects to improve things. That money doesn’t get used for anything it’s just a way for the rich guys to get a write off

The biologists I know from Arizona and Idaho are awful happy to have funding for their projects. Projects that would not happen or take a decade to get done without the extra money from the auction tags.

 

[MNGrouser]

I will still stand by my opinion that many of the people buying these tags do not actually care about the herd or hunting. They care about the tax write off and the one animal they kill.

And I respect your opinion. But if a HUGE chunk of money comes in that the AZDG&F can and does use for habitat improvement projects, doesn't that benefit the herd for everyone? The amount of money those of us who don't have generational wealth would have to pay to make up the difference is not realistic. We can ignore the motives of the rich guys, if the money comes in and goes to the greater good I'm for it.

I take pride in the couple hundred bucks I throw at conservation through Ducks Unlimited and Ruffed Grouse events, but THESE fat cats are making more of a difference.

 

[CorbLand]

Yep. I’m sure the extra $11,00,000 has not helped a lick. I’m also sure there are 11,000 people lined up with $1000 bills to give out to biologist for THEIR projects to improve things. That money doesn’t get used for anything it’s just a way for the rich guys to get a write off

The biologists I know from Arizona and Idaho are awful happy to have funding for their projects. Projects that would not happen or take a decade to get done without the extra money from the auction tags.

I don’t think the state gives a rats ass about providing someone with a tax write off and I know that they love the funding that these tags provide. I am saying the person that buys them doesn’t care about hunting or herds. Massive difference.

 

[CorbLand]

And I respect your opinion. But if a HUGE chunk of money comes in that the AZDG&F can and does use for habitat improvement projects, doesn't that benefit the herd for everyone? The amount of money those of us who don't have generational wealth would have to pay to make up the difference is not realistic. We can ignore the motives of the rich guys, if the money comes in and goes to the greater good I'm for it.

I take pride in the couple hundred bucks I throw at conservation through Ducks Unlimited and Ruffed Grouse events, but THESE fat cats are making more of a difference.

Has anyone been able to show that this funding is being used to increase habitat?

I don’t disagree that the funding these tags bring in is massive, I have said that I agree with the tags many times in here because of the funding they bring in.

I disagree that being against them is due to “class envy” and that the people buying them are doing it because they truly care.

 

[MNGrouser]

MattB's link on the AZ Habitat Partnership committee has some useful information on their yearly projects and costs. Can I show earmarked dollars going to earmarked projects? No.

It seems pretty logical to me that a department that gets $400k more will have money to spend on such projects. And a department that gets $400k less will have...less money to spend on these projects.

I have conceded the point that the rich might not care as much as you or I. Maybe they care more. But their money is there. And I see we agree on that.