Best possible accuracy using traditional iron sights

[Wrench]

I don't run a wire. In steady conditions I can shoot just as well with no front insert.

The key is to remember that the middle of the middle is the middle.

On post and notch sights, make SURE the groove is flat bottomed AND the front sight is wide enough to occupy nearly all of the space with just light on the sides. The front should be flat topped. The 6'o hold is the ticket.

Look up what kind of groups the palma sling guys throw down.....at 1k yds.

 

[Wrench]

To clarify, the rear aperture should just show the outline of the globe.

 

[HighUintas]

Tell me about it. I was doing about 4” 7-10 round groups at 100 yards with a Traditions Kentucky rifle last year.

From what I hear, those guns will shoot pretty accurately and am curious to see what difference you end up with on another gun.

Do you have a Kibler in hand yet? Know which one you're going with? I'm excited to see the specifics of what you do with it, or even the Traditions Kentucky you have

 

[Hnthrdr]

From what I hear, those guns will shoot pretty accurately and am curious to see what difference you end up with on another gun.

Do you have a Kibler in hand yet? Know which one you're going with? I'm excited to see the specifics of what you do with it, or even the Traditions Kentucky you have

Any recommendations for a not too expensive hawken clone? Looking to maybe set down the inline and go with a percussion cap, baby steps to flint lock haha

 

[Formidilosus]

From what I hear, those guns will shoot pretty accurately and am curious to see what difference you end up with on another gun.

Do you have a Kibler in hand yet? Know which one you're going with? I'm excited to see the specifics of what you do with it, or even the Traditions Kentucky you have

I don’t have one yet, but almost certainly it will be a Woodsrunner 50cal. Am looking at some options for period correct style of distance sights.

 

[HighUintas]

Any recommendations for a not too expensive hawken clone? Looking to maybe set down the inline and go with a percussion cap, baby steps to flint lock haha

Well .... If I were going to buy a production Hawken style gun I'd 100% just spend the money and get a Kibler Hawken. They are 100% the best Hawken kits ever made that span the J&S Hawken period relative to architecture and stylistic traits and fitment of parts. I'll get one at some point. Huge range of calibers and interchangeable barrels with no breech fitting needed. If you decide you don't like it, you could probably sell it for a a little profit as you've done the finishing work.

If not that, and take this with a grain of salt in that I haven't owned these guns but have done a lot of research looking at other's reports, the TC Hawkens and Renegades generally shoot well, especially with the green mountain drop in barrels. They can often be found cheaply on the muzzleloading forum (not the modern one). The Lyman GPR also reportedly shoots very well. I'd opt for one with slower twist so you can crank up the powder charge if you want with less likelihood of cutting/blowing patches. Slower twists for PRB are supposedly less finicky with load variables but I have no direct evidence/experience of it. Just competition shooters reports. The 1:48 twist common in some of these guns in 45-54cal can be used for both PRB and some lead conicals, so that's something to consider. I've been told by a few competition guys that for PRB the green mountains are the best. There's also the Traditions Hawken line. I don't know much about those but people say they shoot well. There's a member here that has used them a lot, I think, @FrontierGander is him. In my opinion, I think if you're wanting to save a few dollars and get one that is a relatively close example of a more common Hawken type, I'd go with the Lyman GPR.

Or, just be a man and jump straight to a flintlock j/k. Only reason I have a percussion is because I'm a Hawken nerd and there's no current known STL built Hawken originals that were originally flintlock and verified to be so.

 

[HighUintas]

I don’t have one yet, but almost certainly it will be a Woodsrunner 50cal. Am looking at some options for period correct style of distance sights.

Cool. I'd like one of those. Any plans to use it on game? I'd like to see you do a study on deer or elk slaying using 50 vs 54 vs 58 to see if there is a significant difference in time to incapacitation. Because of the difference killing mechanisms of soft lead round ball, I talked myself into 58. I'd like to go smaller if ever enough examples were shown to convince me.

Time period for the woodsrunner (last quarter of 18th c?) I think would be a little harder to find original examples of rear apertures and hooded fronts. I've found at least one in the Cody firearms museum that I think is from the early 1800s that has an aperture rear and hooded front. I'll have to check my pictures.

 

[Formidilosus]

Cool. I'd like one of those. Any plans to use it on game?

Absolutely. The purpose is to see just how effective they can be used- gungakding, speed of loading/reloading, distance- etc.

I'd like to see you do a study on deer or elk slaying using 50 vs 54 vs 58 to see if there is a significant difference in time to incapacitation. Because of the difference killing mechanisms of soft lead round ball, I talked myself into 58. I'd like to go smaller if ever enough examples were shown to convince me.

Oof. I don’t know that I will go that big.

Time period for the woodsrunner (last quarter of 18th c?) I think would be a little harder to find original examples of rear apertures and hooded fronts. I've found at least one in the Cody firearms museum that I think is from the early 1800s that has an aperture rear and hooded front. I'll have to check my pictures.

Not aperture sights on this one. More like Jeager flip up rear sights.

 

[cal30_sniper]

I'd assume that surely someone here has taken their bolt gun that does 1-1.5" large round count groups with a scope and put iron sights on. Or, maybe someone here uses irons regularly instead of a scope and can speak truthfully about their groups without cherry picking and exaggerating their and their gun's abilities.

I’ve done this with my tikka bolts and much fancier irons than a blade/notch combo. Over about 800rds of practice this summer, I’ve gotten to where I can reliably shoot 10 shot groups in the 1.5-2MOA range. The same rifle will do fairly consistent 1.5MOA 10-shot groups with the Maven onboard. These are high end biathlon/globe sights. No way I could shoot anything like that with a 10-shot blade-notch group.

The best blade notch rifle I have is a Swede M96/38 Mauser with the micrometer rear notch sight. I haven’t shot it in quite a while, but if memory serves right a 2-2.5 MOA 5 shot group would have made me real happy with my shooting. That translates to a 3MOA or larger 10 shot group.

Iron sights are super sensitive to target size, contrast, and hold. You can really fine tune them on paper, but I’m not convinced that really translates well to a hunting setting. As Form alluded to, tight groups with irons are even rarer to see centered on the target, especially as the range changes and that perfect lollipop hold now puts the bullets somewhere else relative to POA.

 

[HighUintas]

Not aperture sights on this one. More like Jeager flip up rear sights.

Ahh i didn't think about that. Good idea. Lots of English park rifles had those too.

 

[HighUintas]

I’ve done this with my tikka bolts and much fancier irons than a blade/notch combo. Over about 800rds of practice this summer, I’ve gotten to where I can reliably shoot 10 shot groups in the 1.5-2MOA range. The same rifle will do fairly consistent 1.5MOA 10-shot groups with the Maven onboard. These are high end biathlon/globe sights. No way I could shoot anything like that with a 10-shot blade-notch group.

The best blade notch rifle I have is a Swede M96/38 Mauser with the micrometer rear notch sight. I haven’t shot it in quite a while, but if memory serves right a 2-2.5 MOA 5 shot group would have made me real happy with my shooting. That translates to a 3MOA or larger 10 shot group.

Iron sights are super sensitive to target size, contrast, and hold. You can really fine tune them on paper, but I’m not convinced that really translates well to a hunting setting. As Form alluded to, tight groups with irons are even rarer to see centered on the target, especially as the range changes and that perfect lollipop hold now puts the bullets somewhere else relative to POA.

I've been following your iron sight progress and projects a bit. That is awesome you've been able to figure out that combo for the Tikka and squeeze that accuracy out of that system. I wish I could justify purchasing a couple of those setups, but I certainly can't at the moment.

Did you ever put a scope on that Mauser to see what its potential was?

I hear what you're saying on sight design, sight picture, Aim point geometry, and lighting. I always try to optimize all of those factors when shooting paper. Sight design seems to be a very personalized thing, I tried to finish my sights so that they work best for me in a range of varying field conditions and backgrounds. The optimized setup for paper really doesn't translate well to field conditions and animals as targets.

Here's what I did with mine. Front is angled at the rear to prevent light reflection except for the tiniest smidge at the top. It's at a 45 to reflect light in low light conditions. Rear is flat top and bottom as much as I could make it. A dark greyish works better for me instead of black or straight grey. It seems to work pretty well in bright or low light, except those last 10 minutes of shooting light. The first pictures I posted are just from a backup cap gun. This is my flintlock. Groups are not as tight. 6" at 100 is my best with this one because that pan ignition makes me jump.

 

[Pilsner]

With post and notch sights: 10 round groups, and legitimately consistent- about 3-4 MOA is the best I have seen on various targets. And that was from world class iron sights shooters using precision rifles. I ought to revisit it as I haven’t tried in more than a decade.

I’m sure with specifically designed sights, and a specifically designed target to perfectly frame those sights- it could be a bit smaller. But, I have never seen anyone walk up with post and notch sights and put 10 rounds into a 2” group at 100 yards- let alone put 10 rounds into a 2” target at same.

What if that had been "modern' Skinner style peep rear + front post sights? It has been my experience that most guys who use iron sights use that type configuration unless its a competition that dictates another setup.

 

[Wrench]

A thread file on the back of the rear sight will give some texture of you get distracted. Blacken after.