Big mule deer here I come :)

[robby denning]

All right, I'm back. Took a few weeks to get my bullets from Precision Rifle (prbullet.com) because I wanted to try the Colorado Legal Ultimate Conical 1 both in flatbase and boat tail, and the boat tails weren't quite ready.
Got everything yesterday and man I'm getting excited now.

I worked with Cecil at Precision Rifle to match my twist in my rifle (1:28) to the conical (no sabots in Colorado) that would shoot the best. Fast twists like long bullets and Precision Rifle puts a ballistic tip in their conicals (like rifle bullets) to make both a longer bullet and to set the balance point further back toward the base, making the bullet more stable.

I chose the 350 grain boat tail and the 360 grain flat (actually cupped) base bullets. Here are the 360's:

That is a bullet seater at the bottom- we'll get into the importance of that soon.

Being an accuracy freak, of course I immediately started weighing every bullet. I never found any thing more than plus or minus about 0.7 grains (0.2%) and the majority were right at listed weight.

Here are the cup base and boat tail side by side

Ain't they purdy! (and mean lookin' suckers, too)

The knurling on the bullets help in ease of loading but also help develop more pressure (think speed) as they mesh with the lands.
Of course I'd like to end up shooting the boat tails, but I'll take whatever the gun likes. Being that I'm restricted to peep sights, it won't matter much as the sights won't really allow me to take advantage of the flatter trajectory the boat taill should provide.

Anyway, now it's to the range. Lord willin' that will be Saturday.

Hope to have some results for you all after that (video??? if I can make it work) so stay tuned. It really feels like this hunt is coming together now!

 

[robby denning]

Got to the range Saturday.

Had so-so results. The cup bases grouped 1" at 50 yards (using the XS peep) and showed some promise, but true to my nature, I moved the "!??$% sight the wrong way and wasted my last few shots, so did't get to test them at 100 yards. ARAGGGGG!

The boat tails didn't combo well with the Kahnke. Some groups showed promise (.75" at 50) but couldn't duplicate so never moved to 100. The Kahnke was designed with sabots in mind and the plastic meshes better with a shallow land while the conicals can be hit or miss. This gun has shot 1" groups with sabots, so I know it's just the conical issue.

I'm back at the drawing board with Cecil right now trying to decide where to go from here. I might pursue the cup bases, as they did show promise, but might jump ship and get a gun better designed to stabilize a conical.

I got some video for you all and as soon as I can get through the techinal side of the upload with our Rokslide IT guy, I'll get it on here. I show my technique for loading for best accuracy and a few other things. Stay posted.

 

[robby denning]

I’m back. It’s been a whirlwind the last few days making decisions on how to proceed from here. I bought the Kahnke in 2002 when Idaho opened a new unit with big deer potential but was requiring #11 or musket caps- no 209’s. Idaho was also threatening to outlaw in-line guns without a cocking hammer, which they did the very next year (oh the politics of it all!)

I bought the Kahnke because it was the gun most likely to stay legal. It was a good decision and the gun is still legal in Idaho, although the units were closed in 2003 due to outcry from hunters because we were having too much fun, but that’s another story.

Sabots were legal here back then and the gun liked them, producing 1-2” groups at 100 yards regularly. Saturday’s shooting session referenced above was my first try with full-bore conicals and as I said, only shot so-so. I could continue to test the Kahnke with the 360 cup base, which showed promise, but time is getting short (season opens September 8th and I’m going to get tied up scouting here soon.)

I’ve spent several hours over many calls with Cecil at Precision Rifle in Manitoba Canada
http://prbullet.com/index.htm

and I’ve finally made a decision.

I’m a working stiff like most guys and have a great wife and 3 little kids at home, so these decisions aren’t made lightly. I only own one gun for each purpose (a .22, a 12 gauge, a 7 mag, and a muzzleloader) and wouldn’t call myself a gun nut or collector- can’t afford to be! However, I want to make sure I do this Colorado hunt right and do everything within reason to prepare for success, should the good Lord be willin’.

I decided to purchase the Encore made by Thompson/Center.

Kahnke 94 on the left next to the new Encore.

Many of you may already know what the Encore is, but until this last week, I didn’t really understand the system. For those who don’t, the Encore is one of T/C’s platforms for the interchangeable barrel system, including muzzleloader barrels.

That is all there is to changing a barrel, 5 minutes max.

Several things led me to this decision:
1) Colorado allows the use of the 209’s. I’ve spent a lot of time in the high country and rain is almost guaranteed over a week’s hunt. The Encore allows me to hunt with a more reliable ignition system and a sealed breech.
2) Cecil has designed a Variflame system that can be adapted to the Encore which improves accuracy over the 209’s, and I want the most accurate set up I can get. I’ll explain more about the Variflame in a later post.
3) Cecil has access to other barrels in the event I can’t get one to shoot like I want not to mention he is a crack at tuning Encore's to shoot to max potential. I'll take you through those steps as this gun comes together.
4) My Kahnke is still fully legal in Idaho should a season open with big deer potential and I can pick back up in load testing where I left off (everything is recorded in my shooting journal). The Encore won't be legal in Idaho in the foreseeable future due to the sealed breech and 209 capability.

So the search began right away. Because Idaho is so conservative, I couldn’t even find one Encore in the 209x50—their muzzleloader model with sealed breech and 26” barrel— to look at.

Luckily, the Encore system is interchangeable and I found a .243 Win in a black Encore (I like black guns more than camo) and Cecil was willing to trade a 50 caliber barrel for it. The barrels are going to cross the Canadian border headed opposite directions in the next few days.

I purchased my Encore for $675 at Ross’ Coin & Gun right here in Idaho Falls. Those guns run around $800 but Reed and Paul did everything they could to help me out. Thanks guys! They are a big gun dealer with lots of selection in new and used guns. You can visit their website here:

http://www.rosscoinandgun.com/

Also, I came to my senses and decided to tune the new gun with a scope installed (3x9 Leupold), so I know for sure what the gun is doing. Then I’ll install the XS ghost ring after the load is selected. I should have done that Saturday, but I got in a hurry, just need to slow down and do it right (thanks for reminding me Cecil)

Cecil thinks if we can get this gun to shoot, I should have a 150 yard plus range with it. I really like the 45 caliber, but on this short of time frame, I’m going to step back up to the 50 caliber for this hunt. There are 209x45’s made by T/C, but no guarantee I can get my hands on one in a reasonable amount of time.

I’ll be shooting the 450 grain QT conical cup base in 50 caliber.
http://prbullet.com/shop/products.php?nCategoryID=5&sSort=&bSortAsc=1&nPage=2
Talk about knocking a big deer on his arse! Ouch!

This is exactly the same bullet design as I referenced above for the .45 that showed some promise, so I’m hopeful for these. Cecil's got 60 on the way.

Finally, in the rare event I buy a gun, I always talk to the wife and get the green light. She’s awesome that way, (love ya, honey) but just wants to know what’s going on. I do however have a strange way of introducing her to the new guns that is kind of a ritual.

I know I’ll be spending a lot of time with the gun at first and sometimes a little jealous tension arises in the house: “Are you going shooting again? Didn’t you just clean that thing yesterday? “ “You smell like smoke!”…On and on…, you all know the routine.

Rather than pretend I’m not really obsessing over my new toy, I use reverse psyhcology on her and it seems to work. I tote the gun around like it’s my new girlfriend, bringing it to the dinner table, watching TV with it laid over my lap, bringing it to bed with me, etc. This actually causes her to want to compete for my attention rather than let the nag gene take over—it’s like Saturday night at the dance back when we were dating!

So, she hasn’t seen the gun yet (got it home and put away last night before she caught me with “her”), but tonight I’ll unveil her new competition. I did it this way with the Kahnke 10 years ago and it worked out perfectly; she never once complained about the time I was spending, and I had more home cooked meals that summer than ever. In fact, one of my kids was born about 9 months after the gun arrived—strange but true.

Anyway, when she goes to bed tonight and pulls back the covers, this is what she’ll see:

Can’t wait to see her reaction.

Till next time (if there is one),

 

[2rocky]

Do I see a peep on the old gun?

 

[robby denning]

Yes 2rocky, that is the XS sight system I mentioned in post #1 (see that post for pics).

I use the Williams threaded peep in the XS that can be adjusted from .050 (bright light, tiny hole, better accuracy) to 0.93, or the .125 (low light, big hole, less accurate).

Once I get the load selected, I'll pull the scope off the Encore and move that peep from the Kahnke to the Encore.

 

[robby denning]

Below is some video from the June 30th shooting session that prompted me to try the Thompson/Center Encore. After discussing the results with Cecil, we decided that Kahnke is best left to shooting sabots as that is what it was designed for. I was getting 1-2" groups with sabots at 100, but not the conicals. I'll get some video, too of the T/C and conicals on here soon. So far, they've showed some promise.

Oh yea, that is my Rock 'n Roll son, Cash in the video. Strange, as he likes country music.

 

[robby denning]

[video=vimeo;45682909]http://vimeo.com/45682909[/video]

 

[robby denning]

[video=vimeo;45962597]http://vimeo.com/45962597[/video]

 

[robby denning]

OK everyone,
Got the T/C a few weeks ago and have been "accurizing" it with some techniques and products to hopefully get the best accuracy I can out if it. I wanted to comment a little on where I'm coming from on this whole accuracy thing.

Since rangefinders have come on the scene, I've changed my desire for guns that are flat shooting to guns that are as accurate as a working stiff's budget allows. I used to let accuracy slide (a little) if I was trading for a flatter shooting gun/load. Having both an accurate and flat shooting gun would be the ideal, but isn't always possible, especially when Colorado requires conicals which usually have to be heavy to shoot accurately.

I'd rather have a gun that can put the first 2 shots every time (2 shots is my standard group for muzzleloaders as that will cover 99% of all mule deer hunting scenarios) in a 2" group, peep sights, at 100 yards than a flat shooting bullet that patterns 4” at 100 yards. Flat shooting means nothing if I can’t put the bullet where it belongs.

This thinking also applies to velocity & energy for me, too. I’d rather have an accurate gun with a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps than a less accurate gun with 1800 fps. The buck will not know the difference if the bullet hits where I aimed. Any reasonable velocity at reasonable ranges will kill a big deer IF I hit him in the vitals.

These next few videos show how to set up the T/C Encore for the best accuracy potential.

The first is on replacing the factory Locker Pin with one of Precision Rifle's Locker pins.

The second is on replacing the 209 shotgun primer with the more accurate 215 Large Rifle Match Grade Federal Rifle Primer via Precision Rifle's Variflame system.

[video=vimeo;45777391]http://vimeo.com/45777391[/video]
[video=vimeo;45777390]http://vimeo.com/45777390[/video]

 

[robby denning]

OK,
been at the range 4 days this week. Making some progress with the T/C. First groups were around 8" ARGGGGGGG, but kept working a few things like loading procedure and changing powder brands and I've dropped to 2.8" w/ Standard Deviation of 1.2", so some improvement. I would like to do better, so I picked up some good old fashioned black powder in ffg. Even though it's dirty, have seen some good accuracy with it, so I'll try it as soon as my next shipment of 450 QT's from Precision Rifle arrives.

Also, looks like Colorado scouting trip is coming up in the next few weeks. Exact dates TBA according to work and cowgirlup's 10th birthday. Hope to post a little about the unit and why I chose it.

Stay tuned.

 

[robby denning]

If you've followed this thread, it started out with me hoping to cash in a bunch of points in Nevada or Utah on a mule deer muzzleloader hunt. I tried for hunts that aren't considered premium, and have scouted before, but still came up empty.
That is why I fell back on Colorado.

The unit I got the landowner tag in goes for 0-1 point for the muzz hunt depending on the year. The reason I chose the unit first and foremost was that I've hunted it for 3rd rifle several times and scouted it even before I started hunting it for rifle- so I know it well. To me, knowing your unit well trumps a high quality tag in a unit you don't know. The 3rd rifle tags are way way out of my price range and now take years to draw, so that's not an option, hence the muzz tag.

Now the deer are going to be totally different in the September muzz season compared to the 3rd rifle, but thinking back to the scouting trips I made years ago down there, I did find summering bucks and even a really nice one. I think I can do that again in the September hunt.

Also, the unit is not a great elk unit, so although there will be elk archery/muzz afield, I don't expect the really hard core hunters to be in this unit, but could be wrong.

While I like high-country, this unit is mostly in the oak/aspen/conifer zone. It will be harder to see deer in, but in 31 years of buck hunting, it is this zone (in many western states) where I've seen most of the really big bucks. For whatever reason—feed, cover—whatever, some really big bucks live in that zone, if you can just see them.

Here is a decent rifle buck I took there a few years ago in that zone.

Taped out at over 200” but just as uncommon, was over 350 pounds! Also, notice the great hat I bought at the Kum & Go in Grand Junction. Hard to look at the buck with a hat like that in the picture!

I would expect to be hunting the same areas/elevations I took him in, but am hoping to see the bucks using a little more of the open hillsides that aren't totally uncommon, but not common either, in the unit. We'll see.

I expect to probably hunt the first 2-4 hours of the day with a big dry spell in middle of the day, before maybe an hour of decent glassing before dark. This is where a high country unit can up your odds, as you can catch September bucks out at 11am and 4 pm feeding. These lower elevation bucks do that too, but due to the heavy cover, are just very hard to spot mid-day unless you glassed them up at daylight and kept an eye on them.

In the rifle hunt, I'm usually passing up 180 bucks (like maybe 2 in the whole week hunt), but will probably be dumb to pass that kind of buck on this hunt. This is why I really want to get a scouting trip in before the season. If I can locate a better buck than that, it will be easy to pass the 170+ bucks. However, if I don't scout or don't find anything when I do scout, then it becomes very difficult to pass up the nice ones.

If I've ever done anything right in buck hunting, it was learning to pass up the nice bucks to have a chance at a bigger buck later. Every single one of my big deer has come during hunts or seasons where I passed up bucks that were pretty darn nice. That is the one take-away from Kirt Darner's first book (say what you will, there is some real wisdom in that book) that has made a difference for me in buck hunting; pass up the nice ones to ever have a chance at a truly big buck.

This hunt will really test me in that area, if I'm even able to find some nice bucks in the first place.

So, Lord willin’ I’ll get to scout it in the next few weeks and turnover a good buck (or bucks ) that I can focus my efforts on. It’s a gamble, but beats the tar out of working in the yard waiting for Idaho to open.

 

[HellsCanyon]

Good luck man! I definitely agree with knowing a decent unit trumping the more sought after high name units. At least in a state like CO. I'm hoping to have the chance to pass on those 170" bucks this year in hopes of a monster. We'll see what happens...

Mike

 

[Ridgerunner]

Great post, there are a lot of pearls of wisdom in your writing, can't wait to see what scouting turns up.

 

[robby denning]

Good luck Mike! and thanks Ridgerunner- I'll keep you all posted.

 

[Rick Seymour]

That sure is one dandy of a hat. Mesa County/Garfield/Delta/Gunnison have all had rain just about every other day for the past 3 weeks. GJ now has a Cabelas so you can upgrade your headgear......naw, not after a buck like that. Keep posting

 

[robby denning]

Rick, good to hear on the rain! My contacts down there said it was one of the dryest June's in a long time. Cabelas in GJ? I did not know that! That hat is in danger of being replaced now.

 

[Foldem]

Beautiful buck Robby. My TC's have always been pretty picky about the bullets they like. I"m not saying the ones you are shooting are bad, but the TC muzzleloaders are getting a reputation for problems shooting conicals without sabots due to the QLA feature on the end of the barrel. Basically, they QLA boring is not always quite centered on end of the barrel, so it gives some uneven pressure on the bullet as it leaves. My Triumph hates powerbelts, but loves Hornady FPB's. My buddy gave me a box of "No Excuses" bullets to try, so I'm going to see how they fly and maybe use them on my cow moose hunt this year.

 

[robby denning]

Kevin,
thanks for the tips on the QLA, and you are right. Some T/C's just don't shoot conicals because of that. For those who don't know, the QLA, is a false crown that is slightly larger in diameter than the bore size. Makes loading easy, but can negatively affect accuracy.

If I can't get the gun to shoot, I may have it recrowned to remove the QLA, if I don't run out of time.

Scouting season has kicked in, so I'm really short on range time right now.

 

[robby denning]

OK, things are getting crazy around here like they always do when the bucks start "baching" up. The weather looks great this week in Colorado, I got my Wyoming Scouting Package done (I'll post on the Mule Deer Thread on that trip), and my daughter's (cowgirlup) birthday isn't till next Saturday, and work is caught up, so...
Colorado, here I come. Plan to drive straight through and start scouting Tuesday. I have a few spots in mind to check, so I'll see what turns up and maybe I won't have to make a plan B. I'll keep you posted.

 

[belly-deep]

Robby,

I'm excited to hear the results of your scouting. Good luck!

I hadn't had time to watch your videos until today. I'm glad that you're getting all of this ML stuff figured out...I'll know who to call someday when I need to set one up!