Buying Land- Site Prep and severe slope- Insight?

Jesse Jaymes said:
UPDATE: Just got off the phone w a local Surveyor that was listed in a PDF of Engineers I was sifting through. Very familiar with the lot. Said it's changed hands a few times. "I would avoid that lot like the plague".

Knew the "excavator" as well, and it was NOT the most trusted service. Said it should never have been developed.

A bit disheartened. Been on the hunt with cash in hand for a few years. To my eyes...a beautiful area. But I think I am going to Fold.

Checked a ton of boxes. A TON. And I'm sure Mrs is gonna keep a boot in my ass "Let's at least go look". But I should probably stick to my guns and keep moving.
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Better to find out now rather than later...which is what I would imagine more than one have done if its changed hands a lot.
 
Jesse Jaymes said:
UPDATE: Just got off the phone w a local Surveyor that was listed in a PDF of Engineers I was sifting through. Very familiar with the lot. Said it's changed hands a few times. "I would avoid that lot like the plague".

Knew the "excavator" as well, and it was NOT the most trusted service. Said it should never have been developed.

A bit disheartened. Been on the hunt with cash in hand for a few years. To my eyes...a beautiful area. But I think I am going to Fold.

Checked a ton of boxes. A TON. And I'm sure Mrs is gonna keep a boot in my ass "Let's at least go look". But I should probably stick to my guns and keep moving.
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Great call! There will be another one that is solid that fits the bill, keep socking away shekels and the right one will come up.
 
Well, let me help you out my friend. I've been in land development/civil engineering for 20yrs.

So to find out about the suitability of the ground for building, you would want a geotechnical engineer to run some borings and lay it out in a report. This is the safest and most formal way. You could also dig some pits and see what type of soil is there, if any rock is present, and more than likely eyeball it. I guess it just depends on what you're wanting to build out there.

Typically 33% or 3:1 (3 foot horizontal to every vertical foot) is what's considered the max traversable slope. You can certainly do more but there are tradeoffs. If you're planning on building something on the slope, then you'll likely need a retaining wall to create a pad and that would warrant the geo-tech even more. A structural engineer could be required to design the wall based on the height.

For a cheaper option to give you ideas, you might speak with some local builders and ask them if they've done anything on similar property and then go check it out.

Edit* - run away from it. I see people walk in interested in lots I've already explored for others and I tell them the same thing.
 
Off Topic, but it's my thread.

Anyone see prices stalling or reversing? I am very pesimistic by nature. Just happens.

Speaking with this surveyor, and I crossed paths with a traveler on a recent flight from this very close area....both are expecting a decent tumble.

Surveyor states he's usually booked up 6 months in advance. Now....saying he can see the end of his list and may get to play this summer.

Traveller simply stated it's his opinion it's getting stale.

I've lived in Washington, Idaho and New Mexico.

New Mexico....they can't give it away. $200,000 cash for raw land there would buy you almost a county.

They are not giving Idaho away anytime soon. Was through Challis and Salmon last weekend looking around.

I could be a Townie anywhere in the West. But land where you only see a neighbor or two....and abutting BLM, State or USFS.....not for $200K.

Montana....for the most part.....forget it. Harlowtown, Fairfield, Chinook or Glasgow maybe.

Most of the lots I see for sale....when referencing via OnX....are folks from Menlo Park, California or some other bougie area. Gifted chunks of land they've never seen possibly. Most are out of state addresses for RO.

Envision more people cutting ties with lots they've never seen as the economy continues to tank and inflation increases??

Surveyor's theory is many of the teleworkers who've never been to the Main Office are getting laid off. And many of the nicer western Gems are only gonna be supported by Dual Income.

We know you loved the bike path from Hamilton to Missoula...but time for you to go back to Chicago
 
Jesse Jaymes said:
Off Topic, but it's my thread.

Anyone see prices stalling or reversing? I am very pesimistic by nature. Just happens.

Speaking with this surveyor, and I crossed paths with a traveler on a recent flight from this very close area....both are expecting a decent tumble.

Surveyor states he's usually booked up 6 months in advance. Now....saying he can see the end of his list and may get to play this summer.

Traveller simply stated it's his opinion it's getting stale.

I've lived in Washington, Idaho and New Mexico.

New Mexico....they can't give it away. $200,000 cash for raw land there would buy you almost a county.

They are not giving Idaho away anytime soon. Was through Challis and Salmon last weekend looking around.

I could be a Townie anywhere in the West. But land where you only see a neighbor or two....and abutting BLM, State or USFS.....not for $200K.

Montana....for the most part.....forget it. Harlowtown, Fairfield, Chinook or Glasgow maybe.

Most of the lots I see for sale....when referencing via OnX....are folks from Menlo Park, California or some other bougie area. Gifted chunks of land they've never seen possibly. Most are out of state addresses for RO.

Envision more people cutting ties with lots they've never seen as the economy continues to tank and inflation increases??

Surveyor's theory is many of the teleworkers who've never been to the Main Office are getting laid off. And many of the nicer western Gems are only gonna be supported by Dual Income.

We know you loved the bike path from Hamilton to Missoula...but time for you to go back to Chicago
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Ehhhh as a Co front range guy who tries to keep a decent pulse on stuff in my neck of the woods, there is still a solid appetite for properties like the one your mentioned. I think it may slow, but I think it’s wishful thinking about backsliding unless the broader economy really tanks. I have a buddy who moved to the sticks for covid… he is currently running back to town after long commutes and unpleasant weather he is over it so I think there may be some of those types. I will say it seems a lot of the generation who gobbled up acreage for Pennies on the dollar is reaching death or nursing home age and I think properties will hit the market, but kids and realtors still will ask top dollar.
 
I would recommend talking to at least a couple different engineers / surveyors in these situations if at all possible. In my experience working with smaller town engineers in the west, you dont know whos related to whom or who they're in business with.

Im not trying to say they are all bad at all. But many western engineers have built businesses on this western land grab and ties between specific engineers / developers / contractors / realtors are pretty tight. Some have burnt bridges too.

Im skeptical by nature most of the time but i usually try to work with engineers that dont have local development ties whenever possible.
 
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Glad you decided to pass on that property. After seeing the pic you posted of the property I was going to tell you to pass but I’m glad you did a little research first. It just looked really bad to me with lots of potential problems.

As for land prices in NM. It depends on where you are looking to buy. It has gone through the roof for my area. My SIL has 3/4 of an acre next to me and my wife. No water, gas, electric, or sewer on the property. She listed it for 41K. Reduced the price about 5 times before removing it from the market. 5 years ago this same property was only worth 10k. It’s a rural area right on the edge of “city limits” if you could call it a city.
 
Jesse Jaymes said:
Off Topic, but it's my thread.

Anyone see prices stalling or reversing? I am very pesimistic by nature. Just happens.
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My opinion is no. There's a lot of cash sloshing around out there. People from California. People making incredible salaries with a computer. The west is on fire in the real estate game, no question.

I think it would take a 2008 scale economic downturn to actually drive prices down in the mountain west. My opinion is the Fed and whatever administration is in charge will not let that happen anytime soon. 2008 is still really fresh on everyone's mind. People running the big banks still remember - they put in backstops to prevent a repeat performance. I think best case scenario is a minor economic slowdown and prices flatline for a few years.

Too many prople crying wolf right now about how the sky is falling. Nothingburger. Stock market still go up.

And whatever you do, ignore anything a realtor says. Mine told me last year that he had good sources says we would be in the 4-5% rate range right now 😂😂😂.

Realtors will say whatever it takes to get you to buy/sell. Failed used car salesman types, or mommy bloggers that can use instagram.
 
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From my own readings and listening to a few people in the real-estate business that I trust, there is a 3.5-5 year housing surplus. I do not see prices going up or down significantly. As interest rates go down, if...then prices will edge up. As boomers pass on, land/homes will hit the market.

If it were me, I would be more concerned with finding exactly what I want, rather than making something work. Price would matter, but it would be just as important as location and other details.

Good luck!

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk
 
I think it’s pretty hard to predict the future on real estate. I’ve read more than one article talking about the work from home trend reversing course. Anyone getting laid off and or wanting or move up is very likely going to be relocating to a more urban area.

All that said, a friend of mine is a contractor in the Gallatin Valley. He said the amount of trust fund money in that area is staggering. I’m sure there are other areas across the west like it. There is a heck of a lot of money in the US that is hard for folks like me to comprehend.
 
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Look for a good and well represented geotechnical consulting house. They normally combine all of the specialties required for this application in one go to contact.
 
I would approach it (as an engineer), 1 climate( water saturation seasonally) 2 soil stratification. Dirt on clay makes for slip planes, 3 underlying rock and bedding direction and dip.

Without a toe buttress an open slope like that is likely to move given time. A little bit every year or all at once given climactic conditions.

There are houses in Bozeman that are moving enough to shear sewer and water lines. Some of the land in Moonlight basin was moving during development to be noticable over the weekend for pipes and roads. South of there near quake lake; you can see blocks of land that have moved a mile or so over time.

Building even on rock can be risky once you start juicing it up with lawn watering and septic fields. It is critical to understanding the history of land geologically before building. It's not what you want as much as what the land will let you do.
 
I'm late to the conversation. Until you get a geotechnical evaluation you are guessing - this isn't where you go with your gut feel. Not worth dying over.

That site picture above scared the crap outta me. I work at a geotech firm, yes it costs money but is necessary.
 
Smart to walk from that property- unless you can steal it for the price it would cost to re-engineer that whole area.

It looks like a classic cut and fill. If those are done without the proper Keyway and compaction with a Soils Engineer on site supervising and/or making site visits during the process- it's an accident waiting to happen.
 
Jesse Jaymes said:
Sloppy....many thanks
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If you need anything, feel free to message me. I do this for a living.

Similarly, I have around 200k and want to find a place for my family. Land here has gone from 3k to 15-20k an acre over the past 10yrs. It's a bit speculative because of where I'm at and all of the growth we are seeing. It's a bit disheartening too.

We have roots here, work here, my kids go to school here as I did. Family is here as well. We want to find land and build or find land with a nice house and get out of town. I'm a bit skeptical with the rates the way they are that it's a good decision but they don't seem to be going anywhere and land cost just continues to rise. Can't decide if it's best to jump and unload my cash on land or hold and wait for a lull. The area we live in is like nowhere else in the country with 4 of the top fortune 500 companies heavily investing in their campuses and the local towns to attract workers to move here. I haven't seen much of anything slowing down yet. I'm a bit stuck as what to do right now as well. You're not alone my friend.
 
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