CPW releases map of potential wolf reintroduction area

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JustSomeGuy35

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I’ve got the education of living and hunting in Idaho before wolves were reintroduced and the almost 30 years since. If it wasn’t for ag ground and the urban/rural interface Idaho’s elk population would be a shadow of what it once was.The historic Selway herd is non existent, Central Idaho is stuck in a predator pit.
I can understand why you think your anecdotal evidence about how a specific area was impacted by wolves is valid. Maybe you're right or maybe you're thinking too narrowly. Who knows...
 

JustSomeGuy35

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I have shot a lot of elk and deer in areas right after sheep grazed. Now ranches have turned into safe havens for deer and elk , moose from the wolves in Montana, Idaho Washington, Wyoming Oregon. But don't let real world facts ruin your wolf worshipping in the wilds of West Virginny
Cool story but your opinions and experiences don't equate to anything but anecdotes from some random, aggressive guy on the internet.
 

Balderdash

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I live in WI. We have a boat load of Wolves in the Northern portion of the state. They are spreading. They have decimated the deer herd in many areas. It's sad. Many years of deer camp traditions are going down the drain as hunters who are tired of not seeing any deer find different areas to hunt. You still see some deer around town and around residential areas where the wolves are maybe scared to show, but once you get out a few miles from town, there just isn't much for deer.

I feel terrible for CO hunters. Hunted the Flat Tops many times. Was crowded with hunters, but there was plenty of elk running around, too. Was a place where the average guy could go on a DIY hunt and have a good chance at getting an elk. I can't help be feel like the large herds in this area will soon be spoken of in past tense.

They've tried to manage them in WI. The population is many X more than what it was originally supposed to be, but every time they try a season it gets shot down in court by a progressive judge and then it takes a few years to iron it out before they have another one.
 

JustSomeGuy35

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I live in WI. We have a boat load of Wolves in the Northern portion of the state. They are spreading. They have decimated the deer herd in many areas. It's sad. Many years of deer camp traditions are going down the drain as hunters who are tired of not seeing any deer find different areas to hunt. You still see some deer around town and around residential areas where the wolves are maybe scared to show, but once you get out a few miles from town, there just isn't much for deer.

I feel terrible for CO hunters. Hunted the Flat Tops many times. Was crowded with hunters, but there was plenty of elk running around, too. Was a place where the average guy could go on a DIY hunt and have a good chance at getting an elk. I can't help be feel like the large herds in this area will soon be spoken of in past tense.

They've tried to manage them in WI. The population is many X more than what it was originally supposed to be, but every time they try a season it gets shot down in court by a progressive judge and then it takes a few years to iron it out before they have another one.
I found an older yet interesting article about the wolves in north WI, from a quick Google search. Here's an excerpt from it:

"Eric Koens, who has a herd of about 100 beef cattle in Rusk County and is a director with the Wisconsin Cattlemen’s Association, said big problems loom because northern Wisconsin keeps losing wolf habitat to development at the same time the wolf population is growing."

- https://www.timberwolfinformation.org/thriving-gray-wolf-population-wreaks-havoc-on-wisconsin-farms/

I'm not saying this proves my point or disputing anyone's opinions. I only post it to show that sometimes there might be human factors involved that amplify the impact of wolves.
 

displacedtexan

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I personally think the wolf thing will be bad
For hunting and business. I think antis use wolfs as a way to get at hunting

There is no talk of bringing Grizzly back. All this talk of restore to historic conditions by these wolf lovers . Yet Didn’t we have grizzlies?
Not everything is a plot to end hunting...

You've never heard my thoughts on grizzlies... I've been less than 10 yards from one face to face. Still want them in more places.

Historic range.
 

Customweld

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The guy has never been in a woods in his life and has zero experience. He's just regurgitating nonsense
Amazing these types end up on hunting forums and actually think that sportsmen buy into their lies and propaganda
If I didn't think his vanity would have got him by now, I'd swear this was ole buzz-ards burner account.
 

ZValentine

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In 1995 I started my education in wildlife management with a secondary in ecosystems management. As part of my wanting to get as many credits and get my foot in the door I volunteered on a sheep and mountain goat study in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. I think they took me because my family had an outfitting business and I could supply horses and mules to make things easier but either way that was how I spent my first three summers of college, working on that study. As an aside we obviously had interactions with elk, moose, deer and the other predators in the area. If you know much at all about the first reintroduction into Idaho and Montana we were smack in the middle of the unreported release area where they release three times the reported number of breeding pairs. If you don't believe me do the FOIA on your own. We counted release pens, took gps coordinates and met the teams they had out there, very few of which were biologists, most were from law enforcement branches of the Forest Service. I don't have an issue with the wolves existing/coexisting, it's the false pretense they use to spend our money on them and the misleading and straight up lies they use to meet their agenda. I also witness or helped on autopsy for multiple glory kills from wolves on the wildlife where the meat would go to waste if it weren't for the scavengers taking full advantage.
 

Balderdash

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I found an older yet interesting article about the wolves in north WI, from a quick Google search. Here's an excerpt from it:

"Eric Koens, who has a herd of about 100 beef cattle in Rusk County and is a director with the Wisconsin Cattlemen’s Association, said big problems loom because northern Wisconsin keeps losing wolf habitat to development at the same time the wolf population is growing."

- https://www.timberwolfinformation.org/thriving-gray-wolf-population-wreaks-havoc-on-wisconsin-farms/

I'm not saying this proves my point or disputing anyone's opinions. I only post it to show that sometimes there might be human factors involved that amplify the impact of wolves.
I'm not anti wolf, and I know that the predator/prey balance will reach an equilibrium at some point, but on it's way there, cycles of significant imbalance will occur, which is what a lot of states' game populations are going through as wolves are showing up in places where they haven't been in awhile.

All I'm making a case for is proper management to avoid the cycles of game decimation that reliably follow wolf reintroductions. I have little reason to believe that liberal city dwellers in CO will treat the situation any different than city dwellers in MN, WI, MI, etc. They all think wolves are "neat" and that those mean hunters, ranchers, farmers, etc shouldn't be shooting those pretty dogs, but they don't have to experience any of the consequences.

The arbitrary population goals set by wolf managers become completely meaningless. We've surpassed it by several X in WI, yet each new lawsuit holds up any further seasons for years. Meanwhile, the populations continue to grow and expand, and all those extra mouths have to eat something.

I do get a chuckle over how moose populations in many states are being decimated. I was in Yellowstone this summer and we didn't see one, whereas years back they were common all over. Story is the same in MT, norther MN, and other places where wolves are gaining in population. They try to blame it on global warming, ticks, black flies, etc, but then why are Moose in CO, the most southernly population of them, continually expanding thier territory and population?
 

wind gypsy

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I'm not anti wolf, and I know that the predator/prey balance will reach an equilibrium at some point, but on it's way there, cycles of significant imbalance will occur, which is what a lot of states' game populations are going through as wolves are showing up in places where they haven't been in awhile.

All I'm making a case for is proper management to avoid the cycles of game decimation that reliably follow wolf reintroductions. I have little reason to believe that liberal city dwellers in CO will treat the situation any different than city dwellers in MN, WI, MI, etc. They all think wolves are "neat" and that those mean hunters, ranchers, farmers, etc shouldn't be shooting those pretty dogs, but they don't have to experience any of the consequences.

The arbitrary population goals set by wolf managers become completely meaningless. We've surpassed it by several X in WI, yet each new lawsuit holds up any further seasons for years. Meanwhile, the populations continue to grow and expand, and all those extra mouths have to eat something.

I do get a chuckle over how moose populations in many states are being decimated. I was in Yellowstone this summer and we didn't see one, whereas years back they were common all over. Story is the same in MT, norther MN, and other places where wolves are gaining in population. They try to blame it on global warming, ticks, black flies, etc, but then why are Moose in CO, the most southernly population of them, continually expanding thier territory and population?

Things that make ya go hmmm - North Dakota issues 404 moose licenses this year but the MN population has been hurting too bad to issue a single license for the last decade.

I'll agree wholeheartedly that us humans are fooking up wildlife populations whether it be developing wintering ground, interrupting migration corridors, too much recreational presence stress/etc which IS WHY this whole "predator/prey equilibrium" notion is bullshit because humans are already hurting them enough. We should not ignore the impacts to game from humans OR predators just because one suits our desires better. We need to work to mitigate both rather than throw whataboutisms back and forth at each other.
 
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49ereric

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Man just mucks things up whether reintroducing critters or establishing hunting rules. Most deer Hunters here hate wolves cuz it hurts their chances on opening weekend of wolves are in the immediate area. Most Hunter just go one weekend here. People got used to easy hunts well now you have to know the land better. Deer fan out asap when a wolf pack moves in and sticks to heavy cover so if you want to see a deer you had better be damn close to heavy cover but most people want to hunt where they can see far.
It is a challenge when wolves are close.
Bucks still move during the rut wolves or no wolves they might running but always a chance for the Hunter.
 

Okhotnik

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I found an older yet interesting article about the wolves in north WI, from a quick Google search. Here's an excerpt from it:

"Eric Koens, who has a herd of about 100 beef cattle in Rusk County and is a director with the Wisconsin Cattlemen’s Association, said big problems loom because northern Wisconsin keeps losing wolf habitat to development at the same time the wolf population is growing."

- https://www.timberwolfinformation.org/thriving-gray-wolf-population-wreaks-havoc-on-wisconsin-farms/

I'm not saying this proves my point or disputing anyone's opinions. I only post it to show that sometimes there might be human factors involved that amplify the impact of wolves.
Wolves are often see in urban areas now in Wisconsin and take pets out of back yards during the day. Are saying wolves cannot adapt. In Europe and east Asia wolf packs have ben documented many times going into villages attacking livestock and humans losing for food
 

JustSomeGuy35

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Wolves are often see in urban areas now in Wisconsin and take pets out of back yards during the day. Are saying wolves cannot adapt. In Europe and east Asia wolf packs have ben documented many times going into villages attacking livestock and humans losing for food
Do you have a link to any articles about this? I'm not seeing any on google. All I can find is articles about a couple hunting dogs that were attacked by wolves on public land.

You should consider structuring your arguments with citations from reliable sources. Especially considering that you've already demonstrated that you make wild accusations.
 

JustSomeGuy35

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Things that make ya go hmmm - North Dakota issues 404 moose licenses this year but the MN population has been hurting too bad to issue a single license for the last decade.

I'll agree wholeheartedly that us humans are fooking up wildlife populations whether it be developing wintering ground, interrupting migration corridors, too much recreational presence stress/etc which IS WHY this whole "predator/prey equilibrium" notion is bullshit because humans are already hurting them enough. We should not ignore the impacts to game from humans OR predators just because one suits our desires better. We need to work to mitigate both rather than throw whataboutisms back and forth at each other.
What you write is all very reasonable. The ridiculousness that I've called out in threads like these comes from people talking like wolves should still be extinct in these areas. Everybody talks a big game about ethics, stewardship and whatnot until the subject of wolves come up. Frankly, it's retarded.

Though I may be in the minority here, I like the wilderness to be wild. As a history buff, I like to imagine the wilds as they were rather than the abomination they are today. Wolves once had a firm hold in the lower 48 and I am glad they're back. Also, I could give a shit less if people have to hunt harder to see more elk. If someone isn't willing to put in the effort then maybe they don't deserve the harvest. If they want easy then they should hunt the supermarket instead.

People can say what they want but paved roads are more dangerous than a pack of wolves. The wealthy that buy up large tracts of prime land and put cookie cutter houses, mcMansions, and resorts on it are more dangerous than all the wolves. The wealthy that influence politicians and other decision makers into limiting our hunting and access rights, year after year, are more dangerous than all predators combined.

Should wolf populations be managed more strictly? Maybe. I'm not an expert on that. I'm not pretending to be one either unlike some people here. Just because someone went out and saw fewer elk this year doesn't mean wolves are responsible. There's lots of factors.

Lastly, just because someone has an opinion doesn't mean they're an expert or should even be taken serious. That would be like calling Okhotnik a musician because he farted thru a microphone.
 

BajaDog

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Quick point of clarification, but there is no such thing as a Mexican red wolf. It's the Mexican GRAY wolf.

There are two species of wolf in North America- the grAy wolf (A in America, E in England) and the red wolf. The Mexican gray wolf is a gray wolf subspecies. The Mexican gray wolf genetics bottlenecked at 7 genetic founders in the late 70s/early 80s. While the population has been preserved in captivity, the wild recovery effort has been bumpy, to say the least. As a result, many biologists in that program have reversed their position on mixing with other gray wolf subspecies and now believe it may be necessary to preserve the Mexican wolf genetics, which are deeply depleted. Imagine a comb missing 30% of its' bristles. That's the case for every living Mexican gray wolf; the only way to restore those missing pieces of genetics is to breed in individuals with wholly intact genetics, but those individuals no longer exist within the Mexican gray wolf population. My understanding is their hope is to restore some connectivity with other gray wolf subspecies to allow for some genetic exchange, with some reluctance over concerns over genetic swamping.

Red wolves, on the other hand, are historically found in the southeast and today can be found in the wild at the Alligator River Marsh in North Carolina.
 
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