First Arrow Build - Insert/Outsert/Spine Advice Needed

[BloodAndRust]

Hey all...
Here are my bow specs for reference: Mathews Switchback XT, 70lbs, 29" draw.
Here are my arrow specs for reference: Easton Axis 5mm, 300 spine, 11.5 gpi

I recently picked up these Easton arrows- chosen based on price and what seems, to my limited knowledge, to be an appropriate choice for my bow specifications. I'm now drowning in forum posts, reviews, and mfg pages trying to pick out the most suitable components to get started, but the most appropriate info I've found has been anecdotal and I don't want to go off of that alone. My goal for these arrows is to come in above 500 grains (even heavier is better), with moderate FOC 12-18%, and be durable. My biggest concern is spine, specifically, what are the relative upper and lower limits of front end weight that a 29" 300 spine arrow can handle? This information can be used to help me select insert/outsert weight and material, which is the step that I feel that I am at right now. Once I have the insert/outserts mounted I can play with my FP test kit to figure out what point weight the arrow will tolerate without being under spined.

I am currently looking at the Iron Will impact collars (25gr) with Easton HIT aluminum (16gr) or brass (50/75gr breakoff) inserts, or the Ethics Archery aluminum (85-115gr adjustable) or steel (125-215gr adjustable) outserts + collar. I am really leaning towards the Ethics outsert setups because it's the most cost effective and appears to be the most durable, but I'm concerned that even at the 85gr bottom end I won't have enough wiggle room for a point.

I would really appreciate any advice y'all could lend, and I apologize for the juvenile level of question posed. My local pro shop, deep in whitetail country, doesn't strike me as being a good resource for this style of arrow build.

 

[Btaylor]

Will give you my setup for a frame of reference. Obsession Knightmare 66.5# @ 29" I shoot a 27" Axis 300 with 75 grain brass hit insert and 100 grain heads. Scales at 495 grains and from that bow is 267fps.

 

[BloodAndRust]

Will give you my setup for a frame of reference. Obsession Knightmare 66.5# @ 29" I shoot a 27" Axis 300 with 75 grain brass hit insert and 100 grain heads. Scales at 495 grains and from that bow is 267fps.

Thank you for this data point. Have you ever tried out heavier field points on those arrows to see if they paper tune, and have you ever had an issue with a broadhead not catching enough threads on the HIT insert to be comfortable with it?

I'm leaning hard towards RMS Cutthroat heads, but I read somewhere that the threads on those were short and more suited for outserts. That doesn't make a ton of sense to me, and it's just a single review I came across.

 

[Btaylor]

No I didnt run any point weight other than 100. If the cutthroat is a 125 head, you could break off the back of the insert and maintain the same 175 up front. Another half to 1 inch of shaft length would push you to the 500-510 range on total weight. I shot 4 deer and cow elk this year all with 1.5 - 1.75" 3 blade mechanicals and didnt have a single shot that didnt blow through. In your setup with the cutthroat head you can pretty much forget about penetration issues and shoot with full confidence.

I have no experience with outserts so cant speak to that at all. I have never had an issue with any head seating securely with the brass Hits. There are a bunch of different ways to get a great flying setup, shoot what you have the most confidence in.

 

[kodiakfly]

I shoot 5mm FMJ 300’s at like 12gpi, 70# and 29” like you. It’s fun to tinker and experiment, but I think sometimes we can overthink the FOC and how to get that weight up. Before I ever knew what FOC was I’d only ever had full pass throughs on deer, just shooting a shaft and 125gr head. That was several years ago...like 20.

Now back to my current set up. Thought I’d see what all the FOC fuss is about. Guys talking about 14 vs 16%, stuff like that. So I slapped a brass HIT in and took off my rear arrow wrap. Boom, some really good FOC number, that I don’t remember what it even is. Arrow went to 575 Fr and you can feel the FOC just holding the arrow. My point is, with an Axis, put in a brass insert and you’ll have a hammer without worrying about outserts and collars and all that. You can if you like of course, but I just did that (on an FMJ no less) and my FOC jumped like 6%. I did the math out of curiosity but have since forgotten because I don’t care. And I don’t care because that arrow went through two ribs and buried itself several inches in the dead stump behind it and killed my deer this year.

Keep it simple, you’ve got plenty of arrow and bow (already lethal) to add a bit up front and now it’s even more effective.

That said, it’s fine to tinker and experiment and get a certain % if you like. It’s fun to mess around...but you don’t have to if you don’t want to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Beendare]

I shoot Axis 300's in my compound- currently 28 1/4" std insert,150 gr BH, 500gr +/- total.... tunes great. I couldn't tell you what the FOC of that setup is.....I concentrate on perfect arrow flight.

Get someone to run a 29" Axis in one of the arrow software programs with a couple different point insert combos- the only time you run into problems is when you are underspined....slightly overspined in fine.


....and sent you a PM with link to a long thread on another forum on how I go about building and tuning my hunting arrows...

 

[BloodAndRust]

My point is, with an Axis, put in a brass insert and you’ll have a hammer without worrying about outserts and collars and all that.k

To be honest, I'm strictly looking at collars as a means to add durability to my arrows. I would prefer if they weighed nothing...there's enough choice in COC broadhead weights that I would much prefer to tune my arrows with that than limit my broadhead selection by spending weight elsewhere.

....and sent you a PM with link to a long thread on another forum on how I go about building and tuning my hunting arrows...

Thank you! I'll be reading through it tomorrow.

 

[Don Qui Puncher]

I have the 300 at 27 with 50 of brass and 125 head and I’m around 505, putting footers on soon, I also have 29 inch draw and 70 lb bow. Ran the numbers with 50 grains of brass 125 head and 25 grain collar

 

[Don Qui Puncher]

That was cut at 29, these are the same numbers at 28

 

[BloodAndRust]

DQP, thank you so much for that. I just went ahead and ordered a pack of brass inserts and a pack of Iron Will collars, so your charts have me resting easy. It's crazy what 1" of arrow length can do to your spine.

Something I've been wondering about is whether or not a steel collar actually stiffens the spine in a similar manner to reduced length, considering the part of the arrow inside of the collar is rendered inflexible. At best/worst, it could actually negate its own weight's impact on dynamic spine.

 

[Don Qui Puncher]

I think that the 25 grain collar up front weakens the spine, so I recently got that app on m phone and constantly play with it, I ran some of my RIP TKO shafts I built last year with 200 grains up front and on that chart the indicator is around 10:30 which is just starting to get into the yellow, and they tuned perfectly through paper and with broadheads out to 70+, I don't know at what point on that program you start seeing the effects of a shaft being to weak. but with that setup cut to 28 it shows optimal spine, you should be fine if you wanted to add or take away 25 grains which Is a great place to be

 

[Kay9Cop]

The collar is shorter than the brass insert, so no effect on the spine in the manner you’re thinking of. It does affect spine because of the additional weight, which was calculated for in the estimates posted.

What the collar will do for you is help the end of the shaft resist splitting or mushrooming.

 

[MattB]

DQP, thank you so much for that. I just went ahead and ordered a pack of brass inserts and a pack of Iron Will collars, so your charts have me resting easy. It's crazy what 1" of arrow length can do to your spine.

Something I've been wondering about is whether or not a steel collar actually stiffens the spine in a similar manner to reduced length, considering the part of the arrow inside of the collar is rendered inflexible. At best/worst, it could actually negate its own weight's impact on dynamic spine.

Stiffens? No, a collar weakens the dynamic spine due to the added weight up front. The part of the arrow the collar covers is filled with the BH and insert, so it is already rendered inflexible.

 

[Duerrr]

On the same boat here, 70#, 29." Iron will collar and insert. I have nothing useful to contribute other than im taking the 300 FMJs.

My wallet is gonna kill me.

 

[Bump79]

Here's my .02 cents. The IW inserts collars look nice but are expensive. The HIT system is by far and away the easiest setup for 5mm and 4mm shafts. I'd build them with the stock aluminum insert and Ethics Collar (either aluminum or steel). I don't see a huge improvement in integrity happening with the IW over that.