Historical Idaho Deer & Elk Tag Numbers

[robby denning]

Historical Idaho Deer & Elk Tag Numbers

Robby and Toby dive into the Historical Idaho Deer & Elk Tag Numbers sold in Idaho between 2005 and 2022. This episode might surprise you.

www.rokslide.com

 

[realunlucky]

Another great podcast with Toby. Perception vs Reality always nice when we can clear it up with the facts.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[bpeay4]

I am guessing that tag numbers have barely fluctuated...

 

[facechange921]

yes i think so aswell

 

[mtnrunner260]

Good listen.
I wonder if another factor to the perception of crowding is less hunters on private and more on public? I don't have private land hunter experience but it's a common story to hear "that ranch used to give permission and doesn't anymore "

 

[ckleeves]

Good listen.
I wonder if another factor to the perception of crowding is less hunters on private and more on public? I don't have private land hunter experience but it's a common story to hear "that ranch used to give permission and doesn't anymore "

I think that’s a huge factor in many places in the west that’s very hard to gauge. I feel like deer harvest in Colorado public vs private from even 30 years till now is dramatic. So much ag land has been lost to development in that time frame, large ranches have been broken up into ranchettes and the ranches that have stayed unbroken Billy’s cousin isn’t hunting anymore because the owners are in town to hunt.

As a kid it seemed like every local had a place to deer hunt. It might have been 30 acres or 3000 but by and large It felt like no locals were really hunting public. Obviously some were but I would be really curious to see some stats on this subject.

 

[LookinforDirt]

Very good podcast and thanks Robby and Toby for taking the time to do it. The data concerning the effect of weather on heard populations was definitely interesting as well as hunter numbers and harvest fluctuations over the years. First and foremost; however, what everyone should take away from this is whitetail hunters are hard and mule deer hunters are soft….

I think possibly one of the big perceptions of overcrowding is not actual hunter numbers in the field but difficulty in obtaining a tag. If a tag you used to get OTC now requires points, and tags you used to get for 1-3 points now take 4-5 points, and so on, hunters can express that as overcrowding. Where in reality, as the podcast explained, the number of tags is the same. But, the number of potential hunters applying for those tags has increased. Sorry if this was discussed in the podcast and I missed it. But how hunters express overcrowding can go beyond what the experience in the field. Draw data state to state seems to say more hunters are applying for the same number of tags but I don’t have the data to confirm that.

Also, I like how you touch on reallocation of hunters vs more hunters leads to the perception of overcrowding. More OHV vehicles being used are concentrating in the same hunt locations. Could we also think that technology has had the same effect? Three things that have possibly lead to hunters concentrating in areas are 1. hunter education 2. GPS and cell technology and 3. mapping software.

Hunter education: It used to be something passed down from hunter to hunter, parent to child. Also print and television media and even VCR’s. But that is a drop in the bucket to how many people can be reached by the Internet and all it brings. With rapid advancements in broadband and availability, a person can now go online and learn everything and more they need to get in the field. Experience and skill are still king, and it takes a long time still to build that. But many, many more people with no or little background in hunting can get educated from Internet based resources and services, free and paid for, easily enough to get them started in hunting. Where do these new hunters go? OTC and low point draw units. Is that contributing a concentration in certain areas giving older hunters the perception Hunter numbers have increased? When in reality it has increased in that more specific location. And it isn’t just hunting skills and where to hunt. All the logistics and planning are infinitely more easily researched and setup.

GPS, cell technology, mapping software: These go hand in hand in many ways. My first caribou hunt in 1998 in Alaska was definitely was aided by the obtainability of satellite phones and a Garmin GPS device. We did a 12 day river float trip way out from any civilization. While not novices, we were definitely not very experienced remote hunters. Sat phones allowed us to communicate with our transportation services, get a sever weather warning, be contacted or contact loved ones, and for emergency help if needed. They brought peace of mind and confidence to be out there. The Garmin allowed us to know where we were at all times and mark waypoints of places we wanted to return to. While hunting and from year to year. It greatly simplified and made safer to our ability to hunt in a remote area.

Today you have cell service in lots of areas it would have been unheard of even a few years ago. Every phone now has GPS capabilities to run mapping software, download offline maps, etc. Inreach style devices are a lifeline available to anyone now at not to great cost. If you have battery and a functioning device, you can go pretty much anywhere without getting lost. Not to mention weather reports and instant information are at your finger tips. Don’t know something or need a tutorial? Google it on the spot and get what you need. TBH, this is taken advantage of probably to dangerous levels as people likely know less and less about using a compass and a map. Which is what my dad taught me back in the 80’s. But that was just to get around my local whitetail woods. I was not prepared to venture 3-15 miles on foot into remote backcountry. I can do that now (well, if I was in shape for it).

Of course mapping software takes advantage of the latter and has basically made every contour of every piece of land instantly available to you at you finger tips. This combined with more and easily obtainable hunter education have allowed more hunters to find and concentrate into spots that used to only be know by locals. Hunters who learned from many hours and seasons spent in the field and/or passed down from family. Those hunters now see more and more hunters there every year. That constitutes overcrowding in their book.

I think all of that has reallocated the more or less same number of hunters into more concentrated areas giving the perception of increased hunter numbers. And in a way they are right. That location is seeing more hunters. Hunters are forced to seek out new locations farther away from where most people can go. And/or have to get that much smarter and more crafty about finding game where others are not looking.

Finally, as if anyone is still reading this post at this point, loss of habitat and access I think is a big contributor. More hunters forced into the same shrinking space.

Access: And again I don’t have numbers and I surmise, that loss of private land access over the decades has reallocated many hunters from private to public. Not an increase of overall hunters but taking those same hunters and putting them in a smaller space.

Habitat: I don’t mean just western habitat. There is a trickle down effect of a hunter in eastern states losing access due to habitat loss. Unlike protected land out west, much of what is east of the Mississippi can be sold and bought for commercial and residential development. And I it is happening all the time. Now maybe hunter that lost his spot says I need to travel if I want to continue to hunt. Many of these hunter look west. When I moved to Texas that is exactly what I did. In Tennessee have much more access and can travel close to my home or within my state to hunt. And at a far lower cost. I still plan on hunting out west but it is no longer my only good option to simply hunt . It is for a different experience.

I’m not preaching doom and gloom or blame. I’m just expanding on what I think might be contributing to perceptions, and in ways reality, that are covered in the podcast about overcrowding.

 

[robby denning]

.....First and foremost; however, what everyone should take away from this is whitetail hunters are hard and mule deer hunters are soft….

...

I’m not preaching doom and gloom or blame. I’m just expanding on what I think might be contributing to perceptions, and in ways reality, that are covered in the podcast about overcrowding.

buncha lightweight mule deer hunters lol.

good points, and not doom & gloom. good stuff to think about.

I will add that mapping software has spread hunters out in my small sample size. We all used to be on the same piece of FS, BLM, etc. but now we can spread out a bit more because I know that landownerX doesn't own that whole mtn, just the bottom 1/3 and I can come in from the top (as an example).

someone above said limited private access has put more people on public. Can't argue against but the private I've been around still has plenty of hunters taking a cut of those tags, just like 20 years ago. Now if private is closed to all hunting (common in Colorado), then ya, those former hunters are either retired or on public.

the point of the episode is that hunter numbers in OTC, at least in Idaho, aren't up, but down. You wouldn't know it reading some posts.

 

[CorbLand]

Super glad you did this podcast. I love to have numbers put to what people are saying proving it right and/or wrong.

I have always scratched my head when people complain about there being too many hunters on the landscape. In Utah, we have cut deer tags by nearly 75% in ~40 years and people will still say its too crowded. I cant imagine what people thought/said in 1988 when there was ~250,000 tags issued.

It confirms a hunch that I have had for a couple years now that cutting tags is not the solution to crowding issues. No matter what, people are going to go with or without a tag. Utah is the poster child for this. Someone draws a tag and half the town shows up with them. I have been on more hunts that I was not the tag holder than ones that I was in the last 5 years. I want to go and I will be on the mountain whether you give me a tag or not.

The idea of people being able to move and move quickly is one that I hadnt really thought of in that context but I would agree that it has to play a role. A buddy and I hunted one side of a unit for a day and half. About 10AM on day two, we decided that we werent seeing what we wanted to see so we jumped in the RZR and an hour later we were 35 miles north on the other side of the unit.

Keep it coming, as I want to see more and more data to either back or disprove many claims made. I am trying to get the data from Utah because every time we try something new in this state (trail camera season, muzzy scopes) everyone goes to the board meeting as says "think of the youth" and I want to know if we really have seen a decrease in youth applications since some of that implementation (trail cameras at this point). I have a hunch that many people are standing on the shoulders of their kids to get their own wants.

 

[willfrye027]

Hunter crowding..definitely a scapegoat.

I

buncha lightweight mule deer hunters lol.

good points, and not doom & gloom. good stuff to think about.

I will add that mapping software has spread hunters out in my small sample size. We all used to be on the same piece of FS, BLM, etc. but now we can spread out a bit more because I know that landownerX doesn't own that whole mtn, just the bottom 1/3 and I can come in from the top (as an example).

someone above said limited private access has put more people on public. Can't argue against but the private I've been around still has plenty of hunters taking a cut of those tags, just like 20 years ago. Now if private is closed to all hunting (common in Colorado), then ya, those former hunters are either retired or on public.

the point of the episode is that hunter numbers in OTC, at least in Idaho, aren't up, but down. You wouldn't know it reading some posts.

The “good ole days” syndrome. Easy to remember the amazing hunts where you saw plenty of game and no other hunters. The mediocre hunts from 20 years ago don’t seem to pop up in the memory bank too often.

I think mapping software is also helping or causing guys to bounce around to different or new spots. I came into the western hunting scene when google earth was new amazing technology and you cross referenced paper maps to see where the public was. Trying a new spot was an ordeal. You could more or less count on your “honey holes” not having a major influx of pressure unless somebody leaked it and took other people in.

Now, when E scouting I also consider that guys will show up to spots that look good on mapping software. It’s not an issue to show up in the dark and hike in to a brand new spot using your iPhone.

I feel that a perception of increased hunting pressure may be partly due to the ease of access we have now. Guys are bouncing around and hitting different spots much easier than they could 15-20 years ago. Your honey hole is probably marked on someone else’s OnX maps as a “good looking spot to check”

 

[Customweld]

buncha lightweight mule deer hunters lol.

good points, and not doom & gloom. good stuff to think about.

I will add that mapping software has spread hunters out in my small sample size. We all used to be on the same piece of FS, BLM, etc. but now we can spread out a bit more because I know that landownerX doesn't own that whole mtn, just the bottom 1/3 and I can come in from the top (as an example).

someone above said limited private access has put more people on public. Can't argue against but the private I've been around still has plenty of hunters taking a cut of those tags, just like 20 years ago. Now if private is closed to all hunting (common in Colorado), then ya, those former hunters are either retired or on public.

the point of the episode is that hunter numbers in OTC, at least in Idaho, aren't up, but down. You wouldn't know it reading some posts.

Great podcast with Toby as usual! I think there is increased concentration of hunters on public ground in units that Wilks Brothers (DFD) have property in. Think 23,24,32A,33 and 39. When they bought up Boise Cascade ground, they locked up a lot of ground in those units. These units seem to be a hot topic of overcrowding.