How to assess a hunting dog breeder?

[slvrslngr]

I personally think you're a bit off base concerning pen raised vs. wild birds. Trust me, your dog will figure it out. Yes, some pen raised birds are lumps that let you pick them up. But, the dog doesn't care about that. My PP has belly crawled into a huge blackberry bramble to find a wounded pen raised rooster and she's disappeared into the cattails looking for wild birds, the only way I know she's on point is the bushes stop moving. I've hunted a lot of pen raised birds in Washington, the state has a pheasant release program there. They (WDFW) does a good job of keeping new, wild stock in the breeding program so those birds act wild and can actually survive on their own. I've seen released birds out and about months after the season closed. My point is, the dog will go find wild birds even if trained on pen raised. If the dog has drive, it will figure it out. You're overthinking the issue, concentrate on getting a birdy, healthy, biddable dog with an off switch.

 

[30338]

I've been around probably 40 drahthaars in the last 5 years. They have very stringent breeding standards and out of the 40, only 2 or 3 would have not been what I was looking for. They are very consistent. Obedience training, force fetch, bird exposure and you have a hunting dog, at least in my experience.

They are highly intelligent and love being part of the family. I got both of mine from Vom Heuerhaus in Cheyenne, but I think the breed is very consistent. They like fur chases and I happily allow them to have a little fun along the way.

Mine have only seen pen raised birds on test days, rest have all been wild. SD kennels also seem to be putting out some real good dogs.

 

[Russp17]

I went hunting with a draht today in Alaska. He was a young pup had a nice find and held point for five minutes while we got there. He also had two natural backs later in the day. There are breeders in Alaska who hunt lots of wild birds and there dogs seem to do well. Tundarmoor kennels is one. He is expecting a nice litter. They are also extensively hunt tested. If you want his number let me know.


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[Russp17]

The Sundance dogs that I have seen have all been really consistent... good nose, drive, pointing. I have only gunned over them at NAVHDA tests not wild birds, but they usually cleared the field finding birds left over from other dogs. I am not a GSP fan ( because there are sooo many) but it was enough to impress me. Maybe not as cooperative as a DD guy would like but they stood out.

Like they say there is usually a reason if there are sooo many! Thank you for your insight.


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[2ski]

I'm picking up another griff next week in Whitefish.

What breeder? Glacier?

 

[DJB]

One caution when using pen raised birds with a young dog is letting the dog get in to tight to the bird. For me this becomes a problem when hunting ruff grouse. Ruff grouse like to walk away from the dog on point and if the dog is in tight and can see the bird they have all they can do not to come unglued. With pheasants I haven't had this problem because the cover at ground level is dense and the dog can't see the bird. Once you have a finished dogs they should handle both pen raised and wild birds with no problems.

 

[npm352]

If you cannot see both parents run, the most reliable way to know they are top notch dogs is through field trials. The more recently in the pedigree, the better. The work that goes into a dog that can compete and win at that level is extraordinary.

You can get excellent dogs that have zero FC titles or even placements in their entire pedigree, but you have a better chance with dogs proven by unbiased judges.

Any Tom, Dick or Joe will tell you their dogs hunt great. They may be right. But if someone shows you an FC titles in one or both parents, you have a special puppy. Even just a couple of placements shows that the dog can run and is fully broke. Proven parents do not guarantee the pups will all be great, but it increases the odds dramatically.

I am a bird dog trainer and breeder. I see and work with many breeds of dogs from a variety of parents and pedigrees. I have had a dog taken from a shelter at 5 years old turn out top notch, but I consistently get the best dogs from lines that were proven.

Another thing to consider is getting them from a pro trainer. The reason I say this is twofold. First, a trainer knows what is decent, good, bad or extraordinary because he has seen dozens of each. Secondly, a pro trainer will likely only want to breed and sell the best he can because if you hire him to train the dog, he cannot call you back a week after dropping the dog off and say the dog is shit and is scared of birds.

I would, however suggest against getting a dog from two All Age Field Champs. If you breed two all age running dogs, about one or two in the litter may run that big, which would be useless to a foot hunter. There are databases online that show any AKC field trial placements online of any dog. They will tell stake and number of dogs running. Puppy stakes (6-12 months) soley judge running. Derby stakes (12-24 months) judge running and they have to point a bird and hold it until handler is in shotgun range to be eligible to place. Gun dog and all age are adult stakes. All age dogs will run 1000 yard patterns. Gun dogs run closer in. The dog must back (honor) perfectly and be fully broke and have at least one find to place. All points and backs must be completely perfect and through the shot until manually released by handler. If the dog has five finds and a perfect back, then finds a sixth bird with a minute left and takes one step after establishing a point, he is done and cannot place.

 

[huntineveryday]

The NAVHDA Natural Ability test (and the initial DD testing, from my understanding) looks for search, tracking ability, and cooperation. They also look at coat confirmation, bite, etc. The point being, those initial tests are all about looking for natural hunting instinct and trainable personality. Whether the birds are wild or not shouldn't have a huge impact on what those tests are trying to measure. I can see your point about comparing a dog hunting wild birds vs pen raised, and I think it's valid, but aside from seeing all the dogs on the 3 generation pedigree work in the field, looking for a way to measure and list their natural hunting instincts seems like the next best way to assess a breeding program.

 

[npm352]

To echo others, I would not worry about pen raised vs wild. Yes, it is absolutely harder to pin a wild bird with a good point, especially some of the flightier species. But as far as training goes, it should not matter.

When a pointing dog or flushing dog is hunting, he is searching for a scent cone from a bird. When a flusher hits the scent cone he dives in and tries to flush. When a pointing dog hits the cone, he will flash point and dive in, flash point or point for a few seconds and then creep a step to two steps or even until he reaches the bird, or he will instantly lock up on a hard point and hold it. If you are training with pigeons or pen raised game birds, this is when a launcher is very handy. You will absolutely notice your dog hit the scent cone, especially if you put the bird down and know the wind. He will visibly react to the scent. If the dog flash points and takes a step (meaning he smells it and is not locking up) launch the bird (be standing behind dog), nick the dog with ecollar, and say nothing. The dog thinks the bird can "hurt" him if he creeps. A wild bird would have either busted before the dog hit the cone, or certainly after it started creeping.

If a pointer is allowed to creep at all, he will struggle on wild birds. If he is trained with pigeons or pen raised birds to where he will lock on and hold point the instant he smells the bird, he will do just fine on wild birds.

 

[2ski]

If you cannot see both parents run, the most reliable way to know they are top notch dogs is through field trials. The more recently in the pedigree, the better. The work that goes into a dog that can compete and win at that level is extraordinary.

You can get excellent dogs that have zero FC titles or even placements in their entire pedigree, but you have a better chance with dogs proven by unbiased judges.

Any Tom, Dick or Joe will tell you their dogs hunt great. They may be right. But if someone shows you an FC titles in one or both parents, you have a special puppy. Even just a couple of placements shows that the dog can run and is fully broke. Proven parents do not guarantee the pups will all be great, but it increases the odds dramatically.

I am a bird dog trainer and breeder. I see and work with many breeds of dogs from a variety of parents and pedigrees. I have had a dog taken from a shelter at 5 years old turn out top notch, but I consistently get the best dogs from lines that were proven.

Another thing to consider is getting them from a pro trainer. The reason I say this is twofold. First, a trainer knows what is decent, good, bad or extraordinary because he has seen dozens of each. Secondly, a pro trainer will likely only want to breed and sell the best he can because if you hire him to train the dog, he cannot call you back a week after dropping the dog off and say the dog is shit and is scared of birds.

I would, however suggest against getting a dog from two All Age Field Champs. If you breed two all age running dogs, about one or two in the litter may run that big, which would be useless to a foot hunter. There are databases online that show any AKC field trial placements online of any dog. They will tell stake and number of dogs running. Puppy stakes (6-12 months) soley judge running. Derby stakes (12-24 months) judge running and they have to point a bird and hold it until handler is in shotgun range to be eligible to place. Gun dog and all age are adult stakes. All age dogs will run 1000 yard patterns. Gun dogs run closer in. The dog must back (honor) perfectly and be fully broke and have at least one find to place. All points and backs must be completely perfect and through the shot until manually released by handler. If the dog has five finds and a perfect back, then finds a sixth bird with a minute left and takes one step after establishing a point, he is done and cannot place.

Field trials are only for certain breeds aren't they? Big running breeds. English pointers, setters, gsp, right?

 

[cuttiebrownbow]

Conformation is extremely important and there is no such thing as a wild bird gene. Just my 2 cents.

Find a breeder that meets your requirements so you can happy with your choice and not feel like you picked the wrong the litter or breeder.


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[GreenNDark Timber]

I just went through the exact same thing when looking for a reputable breeder to get my first DD from. What I found from talking with multiple breeders mirrors what 30338 stated above. The testing requirements for breeding make it difficult to not get a quality dog. What I then looked for was a breeder that had a lot of experience, was willing to help me through the training and testing process (most all were), and had a great reputation.

If I was looking out west, Paul Trout from Vom Orion in Caldwell Idaho would be very high on my list of breeders. Paul is a wealth of knowledge, checked all my boxes and was a super nice guy. I know he just had i-2 litter (35th litter) but I believe all are already spoken for. I'm not sure when he'll have another but I'd still give him a call and chat, I'm sure he can point you in the right direction.

I ended up getting my pup from Mike Schell at Vom Jagdkonig in Illinois. In talking to Mike it was pretty clear he'd forgotten more about DD's than I could hope to know. They just had O-3 and P-3 litters, but I'm not sure if all are sold or not. Might be worth a call to find out also, if nothing else you'll probably learn something.

Good Luck