Idaho Unit 22 History/Downfall

[oldhornhunter]

As an avid reader of Ryan Hatfield’s “Idaho’s Greatest Mule Deer” it’s clear that unit 22 or Adams county once had epic hunting and possesses incredible genetics.

Nowadays after spending time in that area, it is clear that the Muley hunting is pretty bad and the area is littered with roads/bears.

Were these roads put in for logging? Are the bears/access to blame for the units historic downfall? Did the winter range get harmed etc?

I’m looking for theories/history on why an all time Muley area has fallen to a terrible low.

Also if anyone has stories about hunting that unit and how it’s changed I’d love to hear. I am enamored with Idaho's hunting history.

I hunted this unit back in the late 70s & early 80s , there were roads all over back then as well as a pile of bears . This is just another Fine example of Idaho Fish & NO GAME trophy MANAGED UNIT success !! Take a look at the units they have managed for trophy hunting !!! they all used to have HUGE #s of big bucks they added in the 2 point hunts keep the # of late tags or increased them . When I hunted it way back it was nothing to see 10 + 4 point or bigger bucks a day, now if you see 1 decent buck in a week your above average. Killing 2 points & does is a guaranteed way to remove a trophy unit !! Add in that this unit probably has one of the highest percentages of poached bucks being tagged as 23 or 31 kills also the 2016 17 winter did major damage to this unit. That is just my 2 cents

 

[IDMuleyKid]

I agree this is a good conversation, I have interest in the specific unit but I think supersedes that and is applicable across the state and the west. I think it’s great to hear the perspectives and challenge your way of thinking, I have to admit the whole draw units being detrimental idea isn't something I had really correlated before. Dioni's point about managing game populations is spot on in my opinion. I am a forester by profession and I see the same thing in silviculture/forestry its a common human flaw to think we are in control more than we are in reality and to take complex and dynamic ecological systems and try to simplify them when in reality there are a multitude of factors at play and to focus on one (over harvest, predator management etc.) is to ignore the others. I think similar to the OP I am just trying to be a student and learn from those that have more experience than me so this is great. I am a life long hunter but more recently have become infatuated with mule deer, I also own and have read Ryan's books and they are great resources and if nothing else keep the fire lit inside. Speaking specifically to unit 22 I am curious how the recent Woodhead fire will effect habitat in that area of the unit, unfortunately I am sure invasive species such as cheat grass and noxious weeds are and will continue to colonize allot of these areas but hopefully some good will come of it too and create some browse. I tend to agree with the point about competition, at least I am seeing a trend in traditionally good mule deer areas I am scouting where I am struggling to find deer but elk populations are doing quite well, that said I have found some good elk spots so there's always a positive haha. I have also seen this play out close to home where traditionally we had high populations of whitetail but EHD has essentially wiped them out, I think that along with lack of grazing in very specific places has resulted in why I am again seeing mule deer in these spots.

Ryan’s book gets me fired up, nostalgic and wishing I was born in the 1930s.

I too have seen the elk taking over, specifically in areas with fire suppression/logging practices in all of SW Idaho.

It’s cool to hear the muleys are occupying whitetail habitat near you, payback for the last 50 years lol. I most recently have been seeing whitetail move south towards avimor off HW55.

 

[Customweld]

Ryan’s book gets me fired up, nostalgic and wishing I was born in the 1930s.

I too have seen the elk taking over, specifically in areas with fire suppression/logging practices in all of SW Idaho.

It’s cool to hear the muleys are occupying whitetail habitat near you, payback for the last 50 years lol. I most recently have been seeing whitetail move south towards avimor off HW55.

There has always been a small population of whitetails in between Sweet and Gardenia. I've been seeing them above Ola for the last 3 years. I hate to see them get a foothold in such a strong muley winter ground.

 

[TheTone]

Ryan’s book gets me fired up, nostalgic and wishing I was born in the 1930s.

I too have seen the elk taking over, specifically in areas with fire suppression/logging practices in all of SW Idaho.

It’s cool to hear the muleys are occupying whitetail habitat near you, payback for the last 50 years lol. I most recently have been seeing whitetail move south towards avimor off HW55.

Imagine what his elk book does for someone that got to see the tail end of the Clearwater region for elk but never really got to hunt it

I think some valid points have been brought up; one I will mention is just how good we have gotten at killing deer. Hunters are so well equipped Tess days compared to the past. Optics are truly amazing, laser rangefinders, super accurate rifles, hunting gear that allows you to go further and stay out much longer. All of those factors lead to us just being way better at getting deer killed

 

[Customweld]

Imagine what his elk book does for someone that got to see the tail end of the Clearwater region for elk but never really got to hunt it

I think some valid points have been brought up; one I will mention is just how good we have gotten at killing deer. Hunters are so well equipped Tess days compared to the past. Optics are truly amazing, laser rangefinders, super accurate rifles, hunting gear that allows you to go further and stay out much longer. All of those factors lead to us just being way better at getting deer killed

Not to mention much more time off from work and reliable vehicles. It used to be unheard of for guys to spend that much time in the field.

 

[TheTone]

Not to mention much more time off from work and reliable vehicles. It used to be unheard of for guys to spend that much time in the field.

My grandpa had stories that he is his buddies always had an advantage because they had a 4wd pickup when few others did. If only he had been interested in big antlers instead of meat. I have no clue what he may have killed in those days because the antlers don’t exist. My dad had to convince him to pack out the antlers from the last elk he shot because he needed them for evidence of sex. I think they got tossed as soon as he was home because I’ve never seen them except in pictures

 

[IdahoHntr]

this is a great conversation and am enjoying the back and forth. Im gonna split with you on this a bit though. I think that the north american model of conservation depends on hunters to manage herds. i agree that weather and habitat are main functions but they are almost equaled by harvest rates in certain units that see more traffic. id bet that you would agree that after this “horrific” winter, winter kill didnt seem especially bad or far above average in central idaho and really the habitat is in the best shape ive personally ever seen in my home area. to that point the reason why alot of bucks die in my local unit will be hunting with harvest at about 10% of total unit population

I think the main point here is that buck hunting does very little to the overall health of a deer population. In fact, in many ways, killing bucks can be beneficial to the health of a deer herd. Doe and fawn survival will always be what defines the actual health of a deer herd and the future of deer in a particular area. It doesn’t take many bucks to breed the does in a particular area and as long as the does are all being bred, the deer populations has the potential to increase. Weather is then the main controlling factor everywhere. Buck hunting changes the structure of the deer population, but doesn’t do very much to control how many deer will be on the landscape in the future.

 

[Andrew12gauge]

I think the main point here is that buck hunting does very little to the overall health of a deer population. In fact, in many ways, killing bucks can be beneficial to the health of a deer herd. Doe and fawn survival will always be what defines the actual health of a deer herd and the future of deer in a particular area. It doesn’t take many bucks to breed the does in a particular area and as long as the does are all being bred, the deer populations has the potential to increase. Weather is then the main controlling factor everywhere. Buck hunting changes the structure of the deer population, but doesn’t do very much to control how many deer will be on the landscape in the future.

I agree to an extent, however I think that forcing hunters to shoot the youngest, dumbest class of bucks in a herd is poor management, and a recipe for buck numbers so poor you actually don’t get all of your does bred. Look no further than the owyhee units, 1000+ 2 points out of owyhee county each year? Honest question, how many deer are there in owyhee county today, do you think there are even 10,000 deer left in owyhee county? I highly doubt it but by all means everybody needs the opportunity to go out and hunt 1 1/2 yr old bucks in the owyhees, it’s a god given right to get your 40 lbs of meat. And don’t hear me criticizing meat hunting here, I’ve eaten plenty of forkies in my time, but to manage traditional trophy mule deer areas by killing 90+% of your bucks as 2 points makes about as much sense as the federal government trying to print money to hedge inflation


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[IdahoHntr]

I agree to an extent, however I think that forcing hunters to shoot the youngest, dumbest class of bucks in a herd is poor management, and a recipe for buck numbers so poor you actually don’t get all of your does bred. Look no further than the owyhee units, 1000+ 2 points out of owyhee county each year? Honest question, how many deer are there in owyhee county today, do you think there are even 10,000 deer left in owyhee county? I highly doubt it but by all means everybody needs the opportunity to go out and hunt 1 1/2 yr old bucks in the owyhees, it’s a god given right to get your 40 lbs of meat. And don’t hear me criticizing meat hunting here, I’ve eaten plenty of forkies in my time, but to manage traditional trophy mule deer areas by killing 90+% of your bucks as 2 points makes about as much sense as the federal government trying to print money to hedge inflation


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If not all of the does are being bred, then yes, buck hunting can be detrimental to the health of the population. I think studies have shown that it only takes a buck to doe ratio of 8 bucks per 100 does to ensure they all get bred. Don’t quote me on that, it’s been a while since I looked at that data, but I know it’s not far off either. Nowhere in the west has a ratio that bad though and so the does are being bred.

With the Owyhees you are talking about antler point restrictions which is a different beast all together. I would agree that antler point restrictions don’t typically work except for under specific circumstances. The approach being used in the Owyhees is not one of those circumstances.. The recent Rokcast Robby did with the biologist from Wyoming was very informative on that topic.

 

[Customweld]

If not all of the does are being bred, then yes, buck hunting can be detrimental to the health of the population. I think studies have shown that it only takes a buck to doe ratio of 8 bucks per 100 does to ensure they all get bred. Don’t quote me on that, it’s been a while since I looked at that data, but I know it’s not far off either. Nowhere in the west has a ratio that bad though and so the does are being bred.

With the Owyhees you are talking about antler point restrictions which is a different beast all together. I would agree that antler point restrictions don’t typically work except for under specific circumstances. The approach being used in the Owyhees is not one of those circumstances.. The recent Rokcast Robby did with the biologist from Wyoming was very informative on that topic.

Those are great podcasts and should be required listening prior to purchase of any tags or licenses!

 

[TheTone]

The owyhee thing is interesting to me. The amount of people that hunt it and actually are looking for big 2 pts blows my mind. A person can learn a lot spending time at check stations and seeing what people harvest and the attitudes they have towards it. I also feel what defines big has a ton of variability to people

 

[Andrew12gauge]

If not all of the does are being bred, then yes, buck hunting can be detrimental to the health of the population. I think studies have shown that it only takes a buck to doe ratio of 8 bucks per 100 does to ensure they all get bred. Don’t quote me on that, it’s been a while since I looked at that data, but I know it’s not far off either. Nowhere in the west has a ratio that bad though and so the does are being bred.

With the Owyhees you are talking about antler point restrictions which is a different beast all together. I would agree that antler point restrictions don’t typically work except for under specific circumstances. The approach being used in the Owyhees is not one of those circumstances.. The recent Rokcast Robby did with the biologist from Wyoming was very informative on that topic.

The same antler point restrictions that are in place in unit 22. If anybody is wondering why the big buck factories aren’t producing big bucks anymore, it’s not rocket surgery, shooting all the 2 points doesn’t leave many bucks to become 3 and 4 points. Then the few that survive past 1 1/2 are targeted during the rut on the “trophy” buck tags.


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[Dioni A]

I agree to an extent, however I think that forcing hunters to shoot the youngest, dumbest class of bucks in a herd is poor management, and a recipe for buck numbers so poor you actually don’t get all of your does bred. Look no further than the owyhee units, 1000+ 2 points out of owyhee county each year? Honest question, how many deer are there in owyhee county today, do you think there are even 10,000 deer left in owyhee county? I highly doubt it but by all means everybody needs the opportunity to go out and hunt 1 1/2 yr old bucks in the owyhees, it’s a god given right to get your 40 lbs of meat. And don’t hear me criticizing meat hunting here, I’ve eaten plenty of forkies in my time, but to manage traditional trophy mule deer areas by killing 90+% of your bucks as 2 points makes about as much sense as the federal government trying to print money to hedge inflation


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Shooting the youngest deer is the best case scenario. Overwhelmingly these deer are not likely to make it anyways. 50 plus percent of forked horns will die anyways. It's not like 100% of them are going to be there next year if we don't shoot them. It's been proven many times by many game agencies that whether you harvest them or not many of not most won't be on the landscape next year. It is literally a use it or lose it situation.

 

[Andrew12gauge]

Shooting the youngest deer is the best case scenario. Overwhelmingly these deer are not likely to make it anyways. 50 plus percent of forked horns will die anyways. It's not like 100% of them are going to be there next year if we don't shoot them. It's been proven many times by many game agencies that whether you harvest them or not many of not most won't be on the landscape next year. It is literally a use it or lose it situation.

If 50% of them die naturally it’s better than 99% dying by bullet. Give out 1000 any buck tags from October 10-24, assume a 50% success rate, a lot of 2 points will still die but at least it would give you 500 more bucks each year. I understand the arguments for but I don’t see a general season hunt for the most susceptible class of animals in the name of opportunity being the sound management practice if you want to then have a “trophy” hunt in November


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[Dioni A]

If 50% of them die naturally it’s better than 99% dying by bullet. Give out 1000 any buck tags from October 10-24, assume a 50% success rate, a lot of 2 points will still die but at least it would give you 500 more bucks each year. I understand the arguments for but I don’t see a general season hunt for the most susceptible class of animals in the name of opportunity being the sound management practice if you want to then have a “trophy” hunt in November


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The gross hyperbole of saying that 99% are going to die by a bullet is not how you make a reasonable conversation when it comes to best practices for management. You're making an emotional argument that's not based in any fact. The reality of it is that you have to not shoot an extreme amount of deer to save a tiny percentage of them that would make it to old age given all of the other factors that kill way more deer.

Basically you're giving up hundreds of opportunities where people could shoot a deer in exchange for a couple opportunities where people will have a slightly improved chance at an old buck.

In the long term that will be the death of hunting as we know it. You limit opportunities enough to where people have no regularity in their ability to hunt and people will lose interest.

I kill big bucks as consistently has anybody I know in general units where everybody has opportunity. The argument that we have to have extreme levels of management to have and kill big bucks is a solution proposed by lazy people who don't know any better.

 

[Andrew12gauge]

The gross hyperbole of saying that 99% are going to die by a bullet is not how you make a reasonable conversation when it comes to best practices for management. You're making an emotional argument that's not based in any fact. The reality of it is that you have to not shoot an extreme amount of deer to save a tiny percentage of them that would make it to old age given all of the other factors that kill way more deer.

Basically you're giving up hundreds of opportunities where people could shoot a deer in exchange for a couple opportunities where people will have a slightly improved chance at an old buck.

In the long term that will be the death of hunting as we know it. You limit opportunities enough to where people have no regularity in their ability to hunt and people will lose interest.

I kill big bucks as consistently has anybody I know in general units where everybody has opportunity. The argument that we have to have extreme levels of management to have and kill big bucks is a solution proposed by lazy people who don't know any better.

That’s the thing though, those general units are unlimited and allow people to be selective in what they will shoot. I’ve never hunted the owyhees or unit 22 because if I go hunt, and I find a big buck I don’t want to be forced to watch it walk, but if it’s down to the end of the season I might smack a forky to fill my freezer, or I might not. By limiting people to only shooting forkies you are forcing them to shoot the most susceptible deer there are, you know and I know that any capable mule deer hunter can shoot a handful of forkies each day of the season if they chose. I do think 90+% of the forkies in the owyhees get shot each fall. There just really aren’t that many deer out there anymore so if 1000+ forkies are being killed that is a very large percentage of the population. And I don’t think that putting an end to a general season 2 point only hunt will be the eventual end of hunting, those hunters can go in any other direction from Boise(they’re all from the treasure valley) to shoot their forky, or buy a whitetail tag and head north and shoot a doe. I know I’m pissing in the wind with this argument because nothing any of us ask will change anything at IDFG


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[Andrew12gauge]

I guess to clarify on my last point if you allow 2500 people to go out to owyhee county, all of whom know they can only shoot a forky or you draw 1000 any buck tags for the same October season and do away with the forky hunt, would you have more or less mature bucks for the future? I have to think that 2-3 years down the road the trophy quality would improve. On top of that you have more mature bucks to do the breeding, which in turn leads to stronger healthier fawns, and a stronger overall herd.


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[Dioni A]

That’s the thing though, those general units are unlimited and allow people to be selective in what they will shoot. I’ve never hunted the owyhees or unit 22 because if I go hunt, and I find a big buck I don’t want to be forced to watch it walk, but if it’s down to the end of the season I might smack a forky to fill my freezer, or I might not. By limiting people to only shooting forkies you are forcing them to shoot the most susceptible deer there are, you know and I know that any capable mule deer hunter can shoot a handful of forkies each day of the season if they chose. I do think 90+% of the forkies in the owyhees get shot each fall. There just really aren’t that many deer out there anymore so if 1000+ forkies are being killed that is a very large percentage of the population. And I don’t think that putting an end to a general season 2 point only hunt will be the eventual end of hunting, those hunters can go in any other direction from Boise(they’re all from the treasure valley) to shoot their forky, or buy a whitetail tag and head north and shoot a doe. I know I’m pissing in the wind with this argument because nothing any of us ask will change anything at IDFG


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I think we agree on the sentiment that the draw hunt isn't beneficial but I disagree that 90 percent of the 2 points are getting shot. There's plenty of private land and public that that has no roads going through it. People don't work hard on a 2-point hunt. Anything not close to a road is safe. I don't think the 2-point hunt damages the trophy potential in a significant way. Some effect yes, not significant though. That's the point we disagree on.

 

[WeiserBucks]

People don't work hard on a 2-point hunt. Anything not close to a road is safe.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement completely, at least not over the last 5 years of the W.R. A tag being valid for rifle cow elk during the same timeframe as the general deer hunt. I saw plenty of folks working hard for cow elk and shooting deer that they even admitted would have never happened without the seasons coinciding, alot them said they simply wouldn't even be in the unit without rifle elk tags and deer were added to the hit list because "why not maximize the potential for success of any kind." Most of those same hunters had a long history of hunting the W.R. B tag which obviously takes place after the general deer season had closed and felt it wasn't worth the expense, effort or missed work to come earlier and hunt a 2 point without an elk tag in their pocket.

Plenty of guys also drug their kids and wives out to have more elk tags in camp and of course they also had deer tags, the majority of wife/kid demographic didn't work hard for elk at all, but they whacked plenty of easily found does and 2 points and some their elk tags got filled one way or another. Just another factor to ponder, I'm no biologist but my eyes work just fine and I saw it first hand the whole time that the rifle cow elk and general deer seasons coincided.

 

[Dioni A]

@WeiserBucks no doubt that happens a lot. That's a general unit where they could shoot any buck though. That overlap of seasons is much less in unit 22 (excluded from the cow hunt) and basically non existent in 40. The demographic that I see who go specifically to a 2 point only unit without other tags in their pocket aren't going to work super hard or be the most effective hunters.

I don't think the doe hunt makes sense for that unit either.