Land Purchase question

[FLATHEAD]

Looking at buying a piece of land, bordering a NF.
Realtor indicates that neither he nor the seller (out of state) has any knowledge
of mineral right ownership under the property.
And the contract states so, even releases them from liability regarding the matter.
Owner lives out of state and is selling several hundred acres.
This has me kind of hesitant to proceed.
Thoughts??????

 

[dylanvb]

Is there a lot of fracking going on in that area?

 

[FLATHEAD]

Is there a lot of fracking going on in that area?

None that I know of.
Contract also mentions no warranty of ownership of
mineral rights (including sand and gravel).
It is a rocky, mountainous kind of place and I know
that rocks and gravel are often mined/sold.
Just strikes me as odd that neither the realtor or the owner
has any knowledge of it.

 

[dylanvb]

None that I know of.
Contract also mentions no warranty of ownership of
mineral rights (including sand and gravel).
It is a rocky, mountainous kind of place and I know
that rocks and gravel are often mined/sold.
Just strikes me as odd that neither the realtor or the owner
has any knowledge of it.

Yeah, I’m fairly new to all this stuff as we just moved into an area where mineral rights and water rights are a thing to think about but as far as I know if they find gold under your property or oil that’s when mineral rights become an issue. I am pretty sure someone will chip in who has more knowledge then I do.
Can you go to a title agency about the records? Someone should have some knowledge about it.

 

[philos]

Maybe go to the county records offices and locate the deed and/or the mortgage documents. Then find attorney who handled the settlement or another attorney or title agent who has the knowledge your seek

 

[FLATHEAD]

Perplexed as to how the seller owns several hundred acres yet doesnt know who
has the mineral rights.
And the contract even mentions it several times.

 

[Legend]

Looking at buying a piece of land, bordering a NF.
Realtor indicates that neither he nor the seller (out of state) has any knowledge
of mineral right ownership under the property.
And the contract states so, even releases them from liability regarding the matter.
Owner lives out of state and is selling several hundred acres.
This has me kind of hesitant to proceed.
Thoughts??????

In Montana our Supreme Court ruled that a mineral owners right to extract the mineral supercedes the surface owner. I have seen this play out and it isn't pretty.

You can find mineral rights at the local county courthouse. It isn't easy and will likely take most of a day. If you find out the feds hold the minerals then you are likely ok as they can hardly make up their mind on simple mineral extraction projects.

If another private entity is involved you would know who to buy them from.

Good luck

 

[Legend]

Perplexed as to how the seller owns several hundred acres yet doesnt know who
has the mineral rights.
And the contract even mentions it several times.

This is common and it just means they and their realtor are lazy/or uncomfortable finding out the ownership.

 

[Jimmy]

Realtors say they are unaware of a lot of things, and buyer should do their own research. Keeps them from getting sued and less work to do.

 

[livingandlearning]

Most deeds will have a line or two just below the legal description stating whether or not mineral rights, or certain mineral rights, are included with the property. However, I would not simply trust the most recent deed of record.

It is not uncommon for a reservation of the minerals to be missed years or even decades prior. A full abstract search will clarify who owns the minerals.

 

[TreeDog]

You could spend a day or two in the courthouse doing research. If you don't have experience with deeds, etc., I would see if there are any title search companies around that would be able to look into it for you.

 

[Hnthrdr]

I would not be nervous. It is way more common to get the land without the mineral rights. If it is not mineral rich area than I wouldn’t be worried about it. Plus there are legal avenues that they have to jump through from what a lawyer told me it’s not like they will roll up and just start punching in wells. I think you will be fine

 

[FLATHEAD]

You could spend a day or two in the courthouse doing research. If you don't have experience with deeds, etc., I would see if there are any title search companies around that would be able to look into it for you.

The contract even stated that even if the title search found someone else owned the mineral rights
I was still obligated to the purchase.

Moot point now, Realtor just called and basically said either sign or he was moving on with
someone else.
I just got the contract yesterday, and havent even visited the property.
No worries.
Thanks for the replies.

 

[Hippie Steve]

None that I know of.
Contract also mentions no warranty of ownership of
mineral rights (including sand and gravel).
It is a rocky, mountainous kind of place and I know
that rocks and gravel are often mined/sold.
Just strikes me as odd that neither the realtor or the owner
has any knowledge of it.

This is one of the major issues in MT. The Montana Realtors Association does nothing to educate its agents on anything in regards to land. I would contact DEQ (Department of Environmental Quality) on if there are any open mining claims on said property. You can also contact the County Land Board in the county the property resides in for info on water rights or mineral rights, easements, etc. This is one of the injustices of Montana, they just sell land to anyone at any cost. Hope this gets you started.

 

[Wrench]

I know my dad walked away from a couple of ranches when he bought his because of mineral and water rights. It's worth the investigation if it's something you intend to keep. Easements and potentially landlocked parcels around you are another thing to be cautious about. You don't want to be in court defending yourself against a prescriptive easement.

 

[FLATHEAD]

I know my dad walked away from a couple of ranches when he bought his because of mineral and water rights. It's worth the investigation if it's something you intend to keep. Easements and potentially landlocked parcels around you are another thing to be cautious about. You don't want to be in court defending yourself against a prescriptive easement.

Good point, never thought about that.
thanks.

 

[Pony Soldier]

It kind of depends on where it is located. My exposure is limited to the western states so I will address it from that point of view.

You can have a title search done usually that will address every recorded transaction that was filed at the courthouse. That can get complicated in mineralized areas. This is much more exact than title insurance. I know of one parcel that had title insurance that had been lumped into a block of land that was sold and it turned out to be owned by someone else.

The next issue is mineral potential. There are three catagories - locatable, leasable and saleable. Locatable is where you can file a claim. You can check on the status through the Bureau of Land Management master title plats. These will give you an idea if there has been a severence of mineral estate such as what was done under the homestead act where you have private surface over federal minerals.

Leasable minerals are commodities that are available at the discretion of the federal government. There are some that were privatized prior to 1920 while others were pulled out under the mineral leasing act and were retained by the federal govt.

Saleable minerals are only available at the discretion of the federal govt. They include sand and gravel but also can can have some building stone and a few other commodities. I have never seen this done under split estate.

The next issue is what minerals may be available on the land. There is usually data available on this through state and federal geological surveys. Historic mining can be available through US Bureau of Mines publications. Part of this program was started by the USBM and was finished by the states. For Montana, I compiled a publication that had all of the state pubs and the bureau pubs on a disc.

The last search is of current mining claims which is managed by the Bureau of Land Management. It is available on line under the lable SR - 2000 or was.

Before I retired, I used to provide that information for the public, companies and agencies.

Hope that helps.

 

[Roosterstraw]

I find it hard to believe the owner doesn’t know if he owns the mineral rights unless this property was given to him. A good realtor would figure it out. I would suggest finding your own realtor to do some digging.

 

[Whistlepigs]

It is common for people not to know the mineral rights and it is not easy to track down who does. Mineral rights are a funny thing and if I am not mistaken is different in every stae.

 

[Gseith]

As stated a title company or attorney will make quick work of finding anything, as they have the resources and connections.
I know in Ohio, if a large chunk of land is cheap, there probably isn’t any mineral rights.