Moose - Sheep - Mountain Goat permits here in Montana

[6mm Remington]

I'd like to know what you folks think, especially Montana hunters or anyone who would ever like to get one of these tags here in Montana. As it stands now, if you draw a ram tag, a bull moose tag, or a mountain goat tag whether you harvest one or not, you have to wait 7 (SEVEN) years before you can apply again. I feel very strongly that Montana is screwing up in that system and it needs to change. I feel it should be Once In a Lifetime for Moose, Sheep, and Mountain Goat.

There are too many people I personally know and hear about every year that just drew their second moose tag, goat tag, or sheep permit. These are such a highly sought after tag that I think it needs changed immediately to give more hunters the opportunity to pursue one of these wonderful animals. The once in a lifetime should not apply for someone who draws a cow moose tag or a ewe sheep permit, and that person should be able to apply for the bull moose, ram sheep, or mountain goat the very next year. Obviously to help keep numbers in balance, there are a certain amount of those tags. Mountain goat I feel should be lifetime for either a billy or a nanny as they both have wonderful hides and the nanny's horns are as impressive as a billy, and the nanny is as important if not more important to helping keep healthy goat populations. I completely understand that by making this change it won't dramatically impact a persons odds at being drawn either, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

After 33 years of applying I drew a mountain goat tag for the west side of the Bitterroot Valley out of Stevensville MT. I started scouting in mid-June and went clear to the end of the season in November. IN all of that time I saw ONE mountain goat! I never killed a goat and yet I had an incredible summer and fall and saw some amazing country every week that I hunted and scouted, which was every week from June through November. To no fault of my own or anyone elses, the populations really tanked in the Bitterroots and there just weren't any goats. I had one heck of a journey and had a fabulous time and I think someone else should get the opportunity that I had to hunt these great animals.

This year was my 37th year in a row applying for moose and sheep permits and I have never been drawn! If you feel the same as I do, it would be a great time to start emailing comments to Montana FWP. They are asking for sportsmen's input on any topic you wish right now. In addition the new head of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks in a guy by the name of JEFF Hagner. He is a smart and a reasonable individual and would be approachable on a subject like this. I'm just putting this out there for you guys who would like to draw a tag some day. Remember if you don't let these folks know what you are thinking, you don't really have the right to complain if nothing changes.

David

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Example: A guy I know drew a Rock Creek ram tag. Shot a 190's ram with 16.5" bases and 43" horns on both sides. Waited seven years and applied again. The very first year he could apply he drew a ram tag for Petty Creek and shot another ram that year!
Before they made the change to a 7 year wait another friend drew a goat tag, the very next year he drew another mountain goat tag. There are plenty more like this, but this is to just give you an idea. All the other states are once in a lifetime!!

 

[hobbes]

Unless they have changed since 2011 or my memory is off, CO is not once in a lifetime.

 

[bbrown]

In Colorado only moose is once in a lifetime harvest - sheep and goat are not. We actually have it worse since we only have a 3 year "waiting period" to get back into the draw but that is not even based on drawing a tag. I would like to see Colorado go to once in in a lifetime for all 3 upon harvest and a 5-7 year wait if you drew the tag but did not harvest.

 

[hobbes]

CO is a five year wait after successful harvest of a ram or goat.

Either sex moose tag is once in a lifetime if successful harvest of a antlered moose.

 

[hobbes]

Didn't see your post bbrown before submitting mine

 

[cowboy]

To the thought of once in a life time on a M-S-G tag. This has been debated for years and years. It's been around so long that it is the reason why the 7 year wait went into effect - give someone else a chance attitude. Everything with applications and tags has a price sticker attached to it. If you make it once in a lifetime the G & F cash flow would be reduced by the application fees as well as the money charged for applying via the web. That loss of income has to be made up somehow and right now the Mt. G&F Dept. can not afford a net loss of any income. Hell - we can't even get our resident license fees increased a resonable amount that will support our game and fish dept. You bring up a resident license increase and you would think that hunting would be only for the rich when in fact I blow more in a bar in one night than a price increase would involve.
How about we make it once in a life time - then I say do the same thing with the premier elk, deer tags, buffalo etc. - where does it stop?
Life is not fair so in my opinion we just need to realize that and move on.

Rather than pole vaulting over mouse chit I think we need to put our efforts into coming up with solutions for wildlife here in Mt. on private lands, access, funding wildlife research, funding our G&F dept to the point they can afford game wardens out in the field, and not running our hunting seasons and bag limits by the legislature in Helena but good sound wildlife biology.

Enough ranting on my part - you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

PS: I have applied for certain premium tags longer than your stated years above and will continue to do so as well as the fact that I have my 3rd Montana mountain goat tag in my pocket - so I ain't no spring chicken.

 

[6mm Remington]

Everything with applications and tags has a price sticker attached to it. If you make it once in a lifetime the G & F cash flow would be reduced by the application fees as well as the money charged for applying via the web. That loss of income has to be made up somehow and right now the Mt. G&F Dept. can not afford a net loss of any income. Hell - we can't even get our resident license fees increased a resonable amount that will support our game and fish dept. You bring up a resident license increase and you would think that hunting would be only for the rich when in fact I blow more in a bar in one night than a price increase would involve.

I agree with you that FWP is hurting for money and I feel it's at the point that we need to bring some legislation forward so that at least some of FWP moneys is hard funded and isn't just based on license and application sales. Sportsman have been the one's who have paid for the vast majority of wildlife management and other programs to ensure that we all have these wonderful creatures to see and enjoy. I think it's time that the general populous that likes to get out in the wilds and see elk, deer, birds, and other animals start shouldering part of this responsibility as well. I don't know if that would come from a tax or what, but I think we need to figure something out. Game populations fluxuate so much that it's not a dependable source or income, and it doesn't fill all the needs of the department. Could you imagine trying to manage your payments and bills when this year you made $40,000.00 and next year you make $23,000.00, and the year after that, who knows! I think that there needs to be a base that they can depend on, and as I said, I don't think what the license sales are bringing in is enough.

I have a couple very good friends who are FWP officers and first off they don't make enough. It's difficult to live on with what they start out with. Often guys get hired and trained up and through probation, and then they find other employment because it's just not enough to survive on. Another topic you touch on is the fact that their are not enough officers to cover the vast state of Montana. That again comes back to general finances and we need to come up with something that is hard funded that is dependable, is there every year, and that can be counted on to increase to take into count growing needs and simple things like pay raises.

How about we make it once in a life time - then I say do the same thing with the premier elk, deer tags, buffalo etc. - where does it stop?
Life is not fair so in my opinion we just need to realize that and move on.

I just feel that moose, sheep, and goat tags are so limited, that it would be nice to give a better opportunity that your son, or my son, or your neighbor might also get to hunt one of these someday. Where does it stop? Well I would hope that common sense and decency would play a part in decisions that we make in that regard. I don't feel that what I proposed is over the top. You say you are on your third goat tag, well good for you and I hope you get one and that you have a great time with friends and family while doing it. That's what it's all about. It sounds like you have paid your dues and put in your time to draw those tags, but again, maybe it's time for someone else to have the opportunity as well. I realize that even if we go to once in a lifetime on the big three that it would not guarantee that either you or I will ever draw, but it does give us a better chance.

Rather than pole vaulting over mouse chit I think we need to put our efforts into coming up with solutions for wildlife here in Mt. on private lands, access, funding wildlife research, funding our G&F dept to the point they can afford game wardens out in the field, and not running our hunting seasons and bag limits by the legislature in Helena but good sound wildlife biology.

You are correct that my mouse chit wish is pretty small potatoes in the scheme of things. It is and it's something I would like to see changed. The other areas you speak of are all good points and I agree. They are more important in the overall picture and I was just wishing we could change one small thing, not reinvent the wheel. I was just putting it out there for discussion. I agree that we need to fund FWP better because it does effect our game populations and how the animals are managed whether FWP would admit it or not. Example is pronghorn in district 480 north and east of Lewistown. That is a spot I have hunted for years for antelope. The antelope herds have tanked over there because of a variety of reasons. Harsh winters, disease, predators, and over harvest. There used to be around 1200 either sex tags and 1000 doe/fawn tags available when populations were good. Right now there are 250 either sex tags and no doe/fawn tags and I do not see how they can morally sell a single tag for over there! The numbers are really down and they are hunting them to death. I feel that if FWP funding was not solely tied to license sells, when populations hit bottom in certain areas that they would have the decency to and the financial ability to stop license sales for a year, two, or three, however long it took to help get that particular animal back on it's feet. I know as a sportsman I would applaud a move like that. Two years ago my son drew an elk tag in the breaks and I drew an antelope tag for over there. We concentrated on the elk and did not spend a ton of time in the antelope areas, but even at that with all the driving around we did, we only saw ONE antelope! There was no way I was going to shoot one. The poor buggers need a break!

Enough ranting on my part - you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

I appreciate your input a lot. I think if you look at the overall picture, we are thinking along the same lines. FWP is in serious trouble right now and need some help. In certain areas for certain species of game, the number of tags they are giving out is obscene, but we understand the reasoning. If they don't have the permits and tag quota's, they lose their money. We need to do something to help fund them. I feel that better science based quota's and wildlife biology is need also. It's been lacking in some instances for sure.

PS: I have applied for certain premium tags longer than your stated years above and will continue to do so as well as the fact that I have my 3rd Montana mountain goat tag in my pocket - so I ain't no spring chicken.

Best of luck on your goat tag. I imagine you have sons and daughters all lined up to help you out, but if you need help on the mountain I know a fellow with a strong back and killer determination.
David

 

[TXCO]

I dont see how complaining about the way things were done or what happened before the 7 year wait would do any good (as referenced in the original post). Thats why they input the 7 wait period and plus as mentioned, not every state is once in lifetime.

I dont see anything wrong with making successful harvest a once in a lifetime tag. What concerns me the most is how few tags nonresidents get in any western state. Many animals live in federal national forests or wilderness but nonresidents only get 5-20% of tags? Most people who love hunting and the outdoors in this country will never be able to get a tag and do these hunts, especially for moose goats and sheep. Think about the money raised if tag fees were left completely disproportional yet the allocation increased for non residents? The 10 western states (Washington, Oregon, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, New Mexico and not counting California) have only 10.5% of the US population yet in most places the inverse number of tags go to residents. I get that states are who are really monitoring many of the herds and its managed at a state level which is how this happened, but a lot of the herds live on federal land. Id like to see more tags go to nonresidents (maybe up to 50%) in order to offer more people opportunities to hunt for these once in a lifetime animals. Id even be fine keeping the fees the same. This would be a huge boom for fish and wildlife revenue since most NR tags are about a decimal place higher than resident.

 

[DaveC]

In fairness, if you spent 33 year applying for 240 and other popular units you could have increased your odds significantly by just applying in a different unit. I'd rather hunt critters multiple times, so I appreciate the current law, as well as better draw odds in the more remote units.

Regarding non-resident caps, consider it a non-monetary benefit of living in a western state. Most folks in Montana (for example) could make more $ doing the same thing, and have a much lower cost of living, if they moved to Missouri. But then you'd live in Missouri. I do disapprove of the trend to make non-resident tag fees egregiously high.

 

[realunlucky]

So have you put in for a goat tag since you were drawn? One less in the pot mentality and all. What do you hope to gain? Odds shift would be minimal is it just for the principle of it

 

[mtmiller]

Blessed, put in for goats twice and drawn twice. Eligible again next year, my name will be in the hat. Sheep and moose, no luck. I am not upset about the MT system.

 

[cowboy]

FYI: Here in Montana your preference points are squared in the drawing process. So if you've put in for 10 years for a moose-sheep-goat tag you have 100 chances. When you draw you wait 7 years and on the 8th year you start all over.

The owner of the company I work for has max points on elk. He still keeps putting in for the same area that is less than 2% chance of draw. He can live to be 100 and he'll never get above maybe 3% because everybody else's preference points are squared also. You can't hunt or cook preference points. He is a strong advocate in making everything once in a life time.

I have applied in 3 different states off and on for moose for over 30 years and and have never drawn - I look at it as a donation to the G&F Depts. every year.

PS: The area I drew my goat tag in for this year is remote and rugged and it'll be 23 miles as the crow flies into camp - but the odds show it was the best chance to draw a tag - and you can't hunt without a tag. I'll burn every preference point I have to get a tag anywhere that is reasonable and has some public access on any animal.

As you can tell I'm not an advocate of States that draw with most preference points first - and we use to have that here in Montana before the current system. There is no way a young hunter will ever have a chance in a system like that where every tag is already spoken for for the next 15-20 years. I know quite a few guys that never apply in some States -- they just buy preference points in the hope of getting enough some day so they can apply. I had one guy figure up what he has spent in buying preference points - he was as surprised as I was that he'd been better off taking a trip to Alaska.

 

[RamDreamer]

Well stated cowboy!

 

[6mm Remington]

So have you put in for a goat tag since you were drawn? One less in the pot mentality and all. What do you hope to gain? Odds shift would be minimal is it just for the principle of it

I drew my goat tag in 2011 so it would be 2019 before I could put in again if I was going to. I want someone else to have the opportunity that I did so no I won't put in again for mountain goat. You are correct in that the odds of drawing if they do change it to once in a lifetime wont' dramatically increase my odds or anyone else's but I feel with these very limited tags it would be the right way to do it.