Non-lead bullet design and fragmentation

[ElPollo]

I just read through the whole match vs hunting bullet thread/novella. Great stuff. I learned a lot from it. But mostly it created a lot of questions for me about the design of non-lead rifle bullets and what could be done differently. I appreciated Form's comment about how the ammo industry is overly focused on how the fired projectile ends up looking, penetration, weight retention, etc. instead of fragmentation. I've hunted with monos (mostly Barnes) for over 25 years for multiple reasons. I understand their limitations in terms of smaller wound cavities and lower BCs. I have always limited my range and maximized velocity through cartridge and shot selection to account for those limitations. I have no experience with Hammers or other fragmenting monos because I am not currently a handloader. I would love to hear from those who have about how fragmenting monos compare with fragmenting lead projectiles in terms of wound cavities and ballistic performance. How close do they come to fragmenting lead-core bullet performance? If they fall short, are there any 'outside of the box' design or materials changes that could be applied by manufacturers to improve non-lead bullet performance?

 

[hereinaz]

I will be interested in seeing the responses for new bullets. One day, we all might have to hunt with copper. Might change my mind. Although like you pointed out, I am of the opinion that the industry seems to wrongly focus on the "mushroom" for performance of breaking bones and exits for blood to track.

 

[MThuntr]

Gel test Hammer vs Accubond | Hammer Time

We set up a gel test to compare the .284 cal 143g Hammer Hunter and the .284 cal 140g Accubond. The test data is as follows. Gel impact at 100y Clear Ballistics gel 10% Rifle cartridge 2

hammerbullets.boards.net

60% shock hammers | Hammer Time

Gday people i thought it was fitting to start a new thread instead of the “ shock hammer trials “ thread As it’s not only the prototype 375 cal 272 gr SH that has been tested ( in a very crud

hammerbullets.boards.net

Hunting & Shooting | Hammer Time

Discussion about hunting and shooting equipment and techniques.

hammerbullets.boards.net

Here's some info on some of the hammer bullets. My experience is they mimic Nosler Partitions in expansion and then weight retention. I'm not aware of any mono that fragments similar to say a lightweight ballistic tip or Berger if that's what you're looking for

EDIT: I do believe Hammers are being loaded or will be loaded by Custom Cartridge Co but at an extreme premium

 

[dieselchessy]

I've used Barns, Hammers, and have Bulldozers waiting to do load testing with. Have Friends that use Cutting Edge.

The Hammer Hunters (7mm 143 from 7mm Rem Mag) fragment off the front and then the shank drives through. The wound channel is pretty small, similar to Barns. The first 5-6" of the channel is grapefruit sized and then the rest is about 2" or so in diameter. They make a 7mm hole going in the hide and a 7mm hole going out. Have punched right through all the bone we've hit.
They are the best copper I've tried to date.
They are stupid easy to get to shoot.

I don't think they act like Partitions. Partitions would blow the front pretty massively and jelly a lot of the onside shoulder and lungs, then punch through leaving about a 2x caliber exit hole in the hide.

I have the Bulldozers to try, hoping to get a bullet that will retain the petals and make a bit bigger exit wound.
My concern being that with a poor shot, I don't expect the HH to leave much of a blood trail. Elk can go a long ways with a poor shot and having a decent blood trail is important.
Be a few years, then I'll maybe know how Bulldozer-2 bullets do on game assuming my rifles like them.

As always, shot placement is key. Of the 4 elk we've taken with the Hammer Hunters so far none have taken more than a step or two after the hit. If you hit where your supposed to, they flat drop elk.

Barns seem to do real well on game. They open up, but tend to retain petals. But they take a fair bit of velocity to open and they have BC's like ping pong balls, so they shed speed and energy quickly.

Always the pursuit of the perfect bullet.

If a guy wants a bullet to act like a bomb they make Copper bullets with large hollow points that do that.
Lots of choices out there these days.

 

[JPeters218]

I've used Barns, Hammers, and have Bulldozers waiting to do load testing with. Have Friends that use Cutting Edge.

The Hammer Hunters (7mm 143 from 7mm Rem Mag) fragment off the front and then the shank drives through. The wound channel is pretty small, similar to Barns. The first 5-6" of the channel is grapefruit sized and then the rest is about 2" or so in diameter. They make a 7mm hole going in the hide and a 7mm hole going out. Have punched right through all the bone we've hit.
They are the best copper I've tried to date.
They are stupid easy to get to shoot.

I don't think they act like Partitions. Partitions would blow the front pretty massively and jelly a lot of the onside shoulder and lungs, then punch through leaving about a 2x caliber exit hole in the hide.

I have the Bulldozers to try, hoping to get a bullet that will retain the petals and make a bit bigger exit wound.
My concern being that with a poor shot, I don't expect the HH to leave much of a blood trail. Elk can go a long ways with a poor shot and having a decent blood trail is important.
Be a few years, then I'll maybe know how Bulldozer-2 bullets do on game assuming my rifles like them.

As always, shot placement is key. Of the 4 elk we've taken with the Hammer Hunters so far none have taken more than a step or two after the hit. If you hit where your supposed to, they flat drop elk.

Barns seem to do real well on game. They open up, but tend to retain petals. But they take a fair bit of velocity to open and they have BC's like ping pong balls, so they shed speed and energy quickly.

Always the pursuit of the perfect bullet.

If a guy wants a bullet to act like a bomb they make Copper bullets with large hollow points that do that.
Lots of choices out there these days.

What caliber were they shooting the elk with hammers? And what range? I’ve seen a lot of elk shot over the last 10 years (40ish) and the only 2 that ever dropped were shot by a 300wm. All these shots were within 150 yards. Most being 50 or less.

 

[dieselchessy]

What caliber were they shooting the elk with hammers? And what range? I’ve seen a lot of elk shot over the last 10 years (40ish) and the only 2 that ever dropped were shot by a 300wm. All these shots were within 150 yards. Most being 50 or less.

7mm Rem mag, 143 Hammer Hunter, 3100 fps. 2 were head shots, so they don't count so much, but 80 yards, and 485 yards. Other 2 were high shoulder shot placement at 450 and 515 yards.

You must be punching lungs if you haven't seen them drop at the shot. High shoulder, head, and neck type shots tend to drop them where they stand. Done it plenty with Rifle and Muzzle Loader.

If you shoot lungs/heart with grenade type bullets like Bergers and ELD-X, ect.. at high velocity they will also drop at the shot.

 

[JPeters218]

7mm Rem mag, 143 Hammer Hunter, 3100 fps. 2 were head shots, so they don't count so much, but 80 yards, and 485 yards. Other 2 were high shoulder shot placement at 450 and 515 yards.

You must be punching lungs if you haven't seen them drop at the shot. High shoulder, head, and neck type shots tend to drop them where they stand. Done it plenty with Rifle and Muzzle Loader.

If you shoot lungs/heart with grenade type bullets like Bergers and ELD-X, ect.. at high velocity they will also drop at the shot.

Yea. All but one of them have been lungs/ heart. And with factory ammo. (Mostly corelokt and fed blue box when I was younger. Last few years have been partitions and Barnes. Only upgrade in performance I’ve seen is they actually exit rather than getting caught in the hide).

Also 90% of our elk have been killed with 30-06 and .270

They typically go about 50 yards and tip over. One of those 300wm drops was a neck shot.. the other was a lung shot with an entrance the size of a grapefruit

 

[ElPollo]

I mentioned early that I've used the Barnes TTSX for a long time. TSX before that. Some Hornady GMX mixed in there. Want to give the LRX a shot, but ammopocalypse. I've killed stuff with a few different monos and the game died pretty fast generally, but I never pushed it on long shots. I also took several neck shots up close with them and obviously had no complaints on those.

That said, much of the major rifle improvements of the past decade or two have been driven by bullet technology and construction. Longer, sleeker, high BC bullets have lead to a revolution in optics and new cartridges designed to shoot long bullets longer distances. Construction of lead core bullets is also now tuned to different applications, match bullets, bonded bullets, etc. But for non-lead, I sorta view the Barnes, Hornady, and Nosler options as all basically about the same or as variations on the same theme. I tend to limit my shots with any of them to about 400 yards. None of them are particularly sleek. G1 BCs in the high 4s are about as good as it gets and performance seems pretty similar across the board with minor differences in how fast they open.

Anyway, these thoughts started me on a YouTube search today for copper bullet gel tests (in addition the 15 second video from mtnhuntr's post). Not a lot out there. Mostly Barnes, Hornady GMX, and Nosler E-tips. I found a couple of gel test videos on Hammers. It appears that the Hammers may be less likely to shed their petals and fragment at slower speed, meaning they probably act like a TTSX below about 2400 fps. The wound cavities in the gel did look slightly larger, but not hugely different. The BCs may also be marginally better, but I don't see them being hugely different than other monos. Other people's mileage may vary because I'm making dicey judgements off a couple of gell tests. I'd appreciate any experience you are willing to share.

I couldn't find any hell tests on the cutting edge bullets. Nosler makes a frangible non-lead varmint bullet called the ballistic tip non-lead. It does not look like it would be suitable for much beyond p-dogs. That's about it for monos that I could find if you discount the Lehigh defense pistol type bullets and brass solids for dangerous game.

Anyway, I don't feel like I felt like I found much in the way of new stuff. It seems like there is a lot of room for innovation on the non-lead bullet front. If I'm missing stuff please let me know.

 

[Wapiti1]

Hammer, CEB Lazer, Lehigh, Maker, Badlands Precision. All shed roughly 50% as fragment petals, usually 4 of them. Gelatin tests show good results, but....Not the same as a lead core bullet turning into shrapnel. Still more trauma than a Barnes, Nosler E-tip or Hornady GMX.

I suspect the direction will be bullet makers combining mono shanks with a thin jacket non-lead fragmenting front. Something like the Federal Terminal Ascent with a non-lead tip and a thinner jacket in that section would be about right.

It's all a compromise of some sort.

Jeremy

 

[ElPollo]

Thanks, Wapiti1. Do you have links to gel test videos for any of those options? And do you anything about minimum fragmentation speeds?

The mono shank/fragmenting front was what I was envisioning this afternoon after looking at the Nosler frangible non-lead varmint bullet. Seems like something that could work. The Nosler uses a compressed powdered metal core. Probably not ideal. Lead is just such a cool material that holds together but 'flows' under pressure. I don't see the powdered metal doing that or coming close in density. Perhaps, the ITX tungsten matrix stuff they use for non-lead round balls for muzzleloaders could have some application for this. It's expensive stuff currently and is still quite a bit lighter than lead. It is soft enough to substitute for a lead round ball, but bonding it to a case like lead would probably be difficult.

 

[Ens Entium]

I've used Barns, Hammers, and have Bulldozers waiting to do load testing with. Have Friends that use Cutting Edge.

The Hammer Hunters (7mm 143 from 7mm Rem Mag) fragment off the front and then the shank drives through. The wound channel is pretty small, similar to Barns. The first 5-6" of the channel is grapefruit sized and then the rest is about 2" or so in diameter. They make a 7mm hole going in the hide and a 7mm hole going out. Have punched right through all the bone we've hit.
They are the best copper I've tried to date.
They are stupid easy to get to shoot.

I don't think they act like Partitions. Partitions would blow the front pretty massively and jelly a lot of the onside shoulder and lungs, then punch through leaving about a 2x caliber exit hole in the hide.

I have the Bulldozers to try, hoping to get a bullet that will retain the petals and make a bit bigger exit wound.
My concern being that with a poor shot, I don't expect the HH to leave much of a blood trail. Elk can go a long ways with a poor shot and having a decent blood trail is important.
Be a few years, then I'll maybe know how Bulldozer-2 bullets do on game assuming my rifles like them.

As always, shot placement is key. Of the 4 elk we've taken with the Hammer Hunters so far none have taken more than a step or two after the hit. If you hit where your supposed to, they flat drop elk.

Barns seem to do real well on game. They open up, but tend to retain petals. But they take a fair bit of velocity to open and they have BC's like ping pong balls, so they shed speed and energy quickly.

Always the pursuit of the perfect bullet.

If a guy wants a bullet to act like a bomb they make Copper bullets with large hollow points that do that.
Lots of choices out there these days.

I really appreciate your tests and sharing of data.

It's been hard to find anything on the Bulldozers so definitely interested to hear how well the Bulldozer-2's open. Especially with how Badlands seems to have a following on the ELR side and the favorable BCs.

 

[dieselchessy]

Can’t speak to the Bulldozer-2 BC.
For the 143 HH I’ve used the listed .230 G7 BC out to 1100 yards and it’s held good.

Pics for the folks who like pics.

162 ELD-x, 168 ABLR, 143 HH, 140 Dozer-2, 139 GMX, 150 TSX, 150 TTSX.

 

[ElPollo]

I've used Barns, Hammers, and have Bulldozers waiting to do load testing with. Have Friends that use Cutting Edge.

The Hammer Hunters (7mm 143 from 7mm Rem Mag) fragment off the front and then the shank drives through. The wound channel is pretty small, similar to Barns. The first 5-6" of the channel is grapefruit sized and then the rest is about 2" or so in diameter. They make a 7mm hole going in the hide and a 7mm hole going out. Have punched right through all the bone we've hit.
They are the best copper I've tried to date.
They are stupid easy to get to shoot.

I don't think they act like Partitions. Partitions would blow the front pretty massively and jelly a lot of the onside shoulder and lungs, then punch through leaving about a 2x caliber exit hole in the hide.

I have the Bulldozers to try, hoping to get a bullet that will retain the petals and make a bit bigger exit wound.
My concern being that with a poor shot, I don't expect the HH to leave much of a blood trail. Elk can go a long ways with a poor shot and having a decent blood trail is important.
Be a few years, then I'll maybe know how Bulldozer-2 bullets do on game assuming my rifles like them.

As always, shot placement is key. Of the 4 elk we've taken with the Hammer Hunters so far none have taken more than a step or two after the hit. If you hit where your supposed to, they flat drop elk.

Barns seem to do real well on game. They open up, but tend to retain petals. But they take a fair bit of velocity to open and they have BC's like ping pong balls, so they shed speed and energy quickly.

Always the pursuit of the perfect bullet.

If a guy wants a bullet to act like a bomb they make Copper bullets with large hollow points that do that.
Lots of choices out there these days.

DC,

Thanks for the info on the Hammers and the bulldozers. You are giving me some interesting things to read before bed.

 

[ElPollo]

Cutting edge gel test

 

[dieselchessy]

If you do Podcasts the fellow who makes the Hammers was on the Hunt Backcountry podcast a few times. Them folks (EXO) have also used his slugs.

 

[ElPollo]

Hammer hunter gel test

 

[ElPollo]

If you do Podcasts the fellow who makes the Hammers was on the Hunt Backcountry podcast a few times. Them folks (EXO) have also used his slugs.

Will check it out. Thanks.

 

[Formidilosus]

Cutting edge gel test

A couple of thought/warnings.

First,

Any substance other than properly calibrated 10% organic ballistics gel is not, and has not proven to have any correlation to live tissue results. Properly calibrated 10% organic ballistics gel has correlation to live tissue results.

20% ballistics gel, clear ballistics gel, synthetic, etc. Just throw those out. The results in them are so off from what is experienced in tissue as to be nearly useless.


Second,

The only lead free projectiles that even remotely come close to fragmenting lead core bullets is tissue destruction are not commercially available. And they still don’t compare. All of the others- Barnes, Etip, Hammers, etc, etc. are not comparable to lead.


Third,

While the hysteria over lead bullets is ridiculous on its face, the irony that people are now cool with almost “any” metal as long as it’s not lead shows the ignorance of the whole thing. I suppose heavy metal toxicity isn’t a thing as long as it’s not evil lead.

 

[Wapiti1]

Thanks, Wapiti1. Do you have links to gel test videos for any of those options? And do you anything about minimum fragmentation speeds?

The mono shank/fragmenting front was what I was envisioning this afternoon after looking at the Nosler frangible non-lead varmint bullet. Seems like something that could work. The Nosler uses a compressed powdered metal core. Probably not ideal. Lead is just such a cool material that holds together but 'flows' under pressure. I don't see the powdered metal doing that or coming close in density. Perhaps, the ITX tungsten matrix stuff they use for non-lead round balls for muzzleloaders could have some application for this. It's expensive stuff currently and is still quite a bit lighter than lead. It is soft enough to substitute for a lead round ball, but bonding it to a case like lead would probably be difficult.

Some of the tests are above posted by others.

However, they just show what is supposed to happen, but as Form notes, that is about it. If there is testing in 10% gel, I don't have any links to that. Even so, it is easy to see that 4 copper petals don't equal 100 lead fragments in total wound volume.

Regardless of real danger, lead will be attacked as a bullet material. It's an avenue of attack for those who would prefer humans don't shoot animals. It's also easy prey given all of the lead is evil information being ported over from paint, gasoline, plumbing and other large scale uses. Average Joe doesn't think critically in a lot of cases. Lead paint was evil, therefore all lead bearing things are evil.

My take is that there will be more push for non-lead, and you'll have to go to a hybrid design to get similar results. Probably at a fairly high cost.

Jeremy

 

[ElPollo]

Form and Wapiti,,

Good points on the 10% vs 20%. I was thinking the same thing when I saw the guy cutting the block in half with the electric knife. It looked way more dense than most gel blocks. I wasn't commenting on the test they did. I was just trying to get any info I could find out there for others to evaluate. I do appreciate the comments.

I am not using non-lead by my own choice or due to any regulation. I just happened to be married to someone who prefers I use non-lead and is more comfortable eating game meat shot with monos and feeding it to our daughter. For me, it is a self-imposed handicap, but lots of people are required to use non-lead by regulations. I did not intend to debate any of those regulations here, but I don't disagree with anything either of you said. My intent was just to use this forum to get a handle on what new options were out and how they might work compared to the bullets that I've been using. If either of you have experiences with any of these options or ideas for improving non-lead options, I'd be grateful.