Painless load development (mine)

[Formidilosus]

Another rifle. UM built 6UM. 20” Benchmark barrel.

The standard load is-

115gr DTAC
66gr N570
Fed 210 primer
2.890” coal

3,250fps MV


Then tried the same with a Barnes 112gr MatchBurner today.

112gr MB
66gr N570
Fed 210 primer
2.915” coal




Then turned straight to the left, used 3,250fps as the MV, and we went 8 for 8 IIRC on a 20” steel plate at 1,104 yards.

 

[josh0513]

I did listen to it but I would love to have it explained more thoroughly. My mind has looked at it as stacking tolerances and I wanted to start off with the highest level of precision. I am happy to have that idea debunked and would like to understand it well enough to have a conversation with my buddies about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just my .02 because after listening to the Hornady "Are your groups too small" podcasts last year, it all made sense to me but I had a hard time articulating it to others who still spent a lot of time down the various reloading rabbit holes. I found that after listening to the podcasts (at least certain parts of it) a few times, it was easier to have a conversation. I've only been reloading for a few years and now I'm trying Form's method which is working well so far but I'm in the early stages. BTW, episode 37 from Shoot2Hunt with the Hornady guys was valuable too.

 

[Jfjfrye]

Looks good IMHO. I'd start shooting at steel. That's about as good as I can get with a 10ish shot group with my 2 300wsms. I've tried different powders and bullets. I think that's just as good as I'm going to get. I can get a 1.2 inch ten shot group one day and a 2.5 inch group the next. I've been told and have definitely learned not to trust 3 shot groups.

What kinda loads are you running for your wsms?

 

[Ac338]

@Formidilosus If I missed it somewhere in the last 27 pages my apologies. Do you find it necessary to use a chronograph or is watching for pressure enough for load development? I’m compiling components for my current build and was about to drop $600 on a chrono that I’ll gladly put towards components and range time instead if it’s not needed

 

[Elite]

I have had multiple people ask me to lay out how I do load development being that what I do is different. Since Shaen @Shooter71 just rebarreled a Tikka 595 in 6XC I thought it would be easy to show how I do it. It’s a Master Sporter with a T3 lite profiled 20” barrel- keep in mind it is a T3 LITE barrel. So by conventional “wisdom” it should be more picky and less accurate than a heavy barrel. His work is shoddy (), but I bet I can overcome it.

The rifle-
View attachment 339906

First was @Unknown Munitions factory load with 105gr Berger Hybrids. 5 rounds to zero, 5 for a “group” at 114 yards-
View attachment 339908

That’s about .7 moa for five. Slipped turret, then five rounds at 1050 yards to true on a 15” plate. First two rounds were to velocity correct, next three hit the plate. If I didn’t need to evaluate a different bullet I would have stopped, ordered 2,000 rounds from Jake and just shot. But I do need to evaluate a bullet, so…



“Load Development”



I don’t do 37 trick moves, I don’t play with seating depths in 5 thousandths, I don’t screw wirh .1 grain powder increments, I don’t try six different powder types, and three different primers, etc. I pick the bullet I want to shoot, a case, a decent primer, a near max load, and seat the bullet to fit magazines, just kiss the lands, or as in this case to seat the bullet so the boatail is at the shoulder/neck junction of the case. For this gun components are hard to find. I was able to get IMR 4166 which is good for the mid bore 6mm’s, the bullet is a 115gr DTAC with Nosering. The cases are Peterson SRP, primer is Federal 205.

I loaded one round at max charge, shot it-
View attachment 340021

Not bad, just a slight ejector mark. Dropped .5 grains, loaded twenty, went to group.

3 rounds to get on paper, then ten rounds at 114 yards for the first group-
View attachment 340032

.72 moa.

One round after slipping turrets, 6 rounds at 1050 yards for trueing. Velocity is 2,830fps.



So we’re at 15 rounds of a factory non tailored load, and 21 rounds for a “random” picked load to get sub moa for ten rounds and trued past 1,000 yards. 21 rounds and done. This is literally what I do for every rifle. Either the rifle and load shoots or it doesn’t.

Just wondering which velocity you were using when you slipped the turret? Or did you chronograph the load first?

 

[2y2c]

I believe he guessed at the velocity. I’ve heard Form say in a podcast that he can pretty much get within 100fps of a cartridge/barrel length/yardage on most guns. Otherwise you can look at a reloading manual and get close enough to make a good guess I’d say.

 

[Pdog06]

Initial Educated guess on the velocity, then trued at distance based on adjustments.

 

[willfrye027]

I’ve been messing around with my harrells powder drop. Some powders it seems to throw really well, others have some trouble.

I decided to load up one of the more problematic powders N555 in my 22creedmoor. I’m seeing a variance of .3ish grains for 10 charges; so potentially even worse over a large number. Seems like there is some powder bridging/sticking going on and randomly a charge will be .3gr or more over.

Didn’t take pics but 10 round group was 0.8”—same as precisely trickling up.

Took some velocity measurements and extreme spread was 62fps over just 5 shots. Previously this has been closer to 15-20fps with trickling and this powder/load. I’m not convinced it matters much, though.

Would this have a measurable effect at 600-800 yards? Maybe, maybe not, I didn’t test it.

For this powder/cartridge i decided to just weigh after every drop and discard the ones that are way over, trickle up ones that are slightly under. Basically having to trickle up one in every 7-10 rounds. Still wayyy faster than before.

For other powders I’m just dropping straight into the case and seeing no difference in precision. Need to test more at 800-1000 but worst case scenario I’ll trickle a box or two more precisely for hunting season.

Powder drop is cutting down on my reloading time and making reloading less of a chore.

 

[huntnful]

I have started to implement this same process basically. And load "development" has been a breeze, while having much more realistic expectations (reality) when going into it.

With three different bullets, I just loaded a charge close to max, that wasn't flattening primers. Seated the bullets close to the lands, which I don't even know exactly where they are, because I just jam a bullet and start .040 from there, or until the lands stop marking the bullet.

I load up 7 rounds of each, 2 foulers and 5 for a group. These are the first groups with each bullet.

.5 MOA 5 shot groups at 300 yards, pretty much equates to a .8-1.0 10 shot group. And that'll kill out to a VERY long ways. So then just pick whatever bullet you want to shoot basically.

No more "tuning" with 3 shots groups and crap. That was such a waste of time lol

Also, the gun wasn't sighted in at the time of the groups haha. I don't zero until I know what I'm going to shoot. Just need to be on paper.

 

[lak2004]

I have started to implement this same process basically. And load "development" has been a breeze, while having much more realistic expectations (reality) when going into it.

With three different bullets, I just loaded a charge close to max, that wasn't flattening primers. Seated the bullets close to the lands, which I don't even know exactly where they are, because I just jam a bullet and start .040 from there, or until the lands stop marking the bullet.

I load up 7 rounds of each, 2 foulers and 5 for a group. These are the first groups with each bullet.

.5 MOA 5 shot groups at 300 yards, pretty much equates to a .8-1.0 10 shot group. And that'll kill out to a VERY long ways. So then just pick whatever bullet you want to shoot basically.

No more "tuning" with 3 shots groups and crap. That was such a waste of time lol

Also, the gun wasn't sighted in at the time of the groups haha. I don't zero until I know what I'm going to shoot. Just need to be on paper.

View attachment 644472
View attachment 644473

What are you shooting the 208 eldm in?

 

[huntnful]

What are you shooting the 208 eldm in?

300 Norma Mag Improved

 

[goathunter]

This has probably been discussed, but what I don't get about this is - what is max load that you initially shoot? For a book load with the same exact components used in the book load I might be comfortable starting with max.

But most my load development is not a book load, it's a powder/primer/case combo that is not in a reloading manual. So I'll find someone to run me a Quickload or use other software, and then I'll do a ladder workup mostly out of caution - and approach max cautiously. I wouldn't jump to max based upon Quickload - for one it's usually not calibrated to your case volume and doesn't calculate for a specific primer, and also it's a little vague on where max is other than how close your calculated pressure is to max.

When I load from the book, I would just shoot the low, mid, and max load from a Nosler manual, for example, and that worked well and seems akin to this method. But switch out the book brass for ADG and you'd be way over pressure at max.

 

[huntnful]

This has probably been discussed, but what I don't get about this is - what is max load that you initially shoot? For a book load with the same exact components used in the book load I might be comfortable starting with max.

But most my load development is not a book load, it's a powder/primer/case combo that is not in a reloading manual. So I'll find someone to run me a Quickload or use other software, and then I'll do a ladder workup mostly out of caution - and approach max cautiously. I wouldn't jump to max based upon Quickload - for one it's usually not calibrated to your case volume and doesn't calculate for a specific primer, and also it's a little vague on where max is other than how close your calculated pressure is to max.

When I load from the book, I would just shoot the low, mid, and max load from a Nosler manual, for example, and that worked well and seems akin to this method. But switch out the book brass for ADG and you'd be way over pressure at max.

I don’t even look at the “book” since most of my stuff is wildcats. Start low with others knowledge with the same cartridge, or a similar cartridge.

Go up in 1 grain increments until the primer flattens or heavy bolt lift is felt.


You can start really really low if you want. But 1gr. Increments will get you up near pressure in a few rounds.

 

[ID_Matt]

There is quite a bit of talk on the interwebs about the 22 creedmoor specifically and how easily it sounds like guys can get loaded to well over max pressure without noticing. Mostly referring to the peterson article that tested max loads and loads that guys posted on forums. It has me thinking - if we are loading to just under 0.5 grains of max, evidenced by ejector swipe, primer flattening, change in bolt lift, or whatever you measure pressure by, are some cartridges going to be well above the 62K saami maximum by this point? Is it case dependent or brass dependent? Obviously some brass is going to handle pressure much better than other, or some guns maybe show pressure quicker or easier to identify.

 

[TX_Diver]

This has probably been discussed, but what I don't get about this is - what is max load that you initially shoot? For a book load with the same exact components used in the book load I might be comfortable starting with max.

But most my load development is not a book load, it's a powder/primer/case combo that is not in a reloading manual. So I'll find someone to run me a Quickload or use other software, and then I'll do a ladder workup mostly out of caution - and approach max cautiously. I wouldn't jump to max based upon Quickload - for one it's usually not calibrated to your case volume and doesn't calculate for a specific primer, and also it's a little vague on where max is other than how close your calculated pressure is to max.

When I load from the book, I would just shoot the low, mid, and max load from a Nosler manual, for example, and that worked well and seems akin to this method. But switch out the book brass for ADG and you'd be way over pressure at max.

I had a 30-06 load that was over pressure at the book minimum so I’m scared to jump straight to max.

I load 1gr increments from min then .5 gr increments once I get close to max. I want an idea of what velocity looks like (even though it’s not exact it gets me an idea). Then I pick a charge that is in the velocity ballpark I want and load 15-20 for a group and velocity check.

 

[goathunter]

I had a 30-06 load that was over pressure at the book minimum so I’m scared to jump straight to max.

I load 1gr increments from min then .5 gr increments once I get close to max. I want an idea of what velocity looks like (even though it’s not exact it gets me an idea). Then I pick a charge that is in the velocity ballpark I want and load 15-20 for a group and velocity check.

Yes I start low and work up slow too, that's what I was trying to say - I thought the painless method described in this thread was basically the opposite - to run with max, back off if pressure signs. I must be misunderstanding. Maybe it's just the not messing around with seating depths

 

[Formidilosus]

Yes I start low and work up slow too, that's what I was trying to say - I thought the painless method described in this thread was basically the opposite - to run with max, back off if pressure signs. I must be misunderstanding. Maybe it's just the not messing around with seating depths

Yes, you misunderstood. Start at wherever makes you happy in book loads. Shoot a round at 1gr interval up to book max or to pressure signs. Drop .5 or 1 gr under max. Load and shoot.

 

[goathunter]

Yes, you misunderstood. Start at wherever makes you happy in book loads. Shoot a round at 1gr interval up to book max or to pressure signs. Drop .5 or 1 gr under max. Load and shoot.

Ok gotcha, work UP to max then drop .5 to 1 gr is the method. I basically did that when I switched to ADG brass. I tried backing off less initially and ejector marks kept showing occasionally until I was 1 gr off.

So you don't look for velocity nodes or anything. I like this idea because it seems like I always want to shoot near max anyways.

 

[TX_Diver]

Yes I start low and work up slow too, that's what I was trying to say - I thought the painless method described in this thread was basically the opposite - to run with max, back off if pressure signs. I must be misunderstanding. Maybe it's just the not messing around with seating depths

My guess is Form, Ryan, and some of the others have significantly more experience than me and when loading for a particular rifle probably have enough background data to know about where they need to be to get a certain velocity.

I have only done this a handful of times so I start lower than someone with more experience probably could.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I know it's not exactly the full painless, but I had to do an emergency modified version yesterday and today. Heading to MT to visit family and they insist I bring a rifle and my new suppressor since I've been advising them about all the performance results posted here, and the one I planned to take I somehow miscalculated bushing size and had sized brass with no neck tension. So I grabbed a different one that I planned to switch powder in, screwed the can on, loaded 1 round at 57gr (57.7 Hodgdon max) and fired it into a dirt pile out back. No pressure signs at all, loaded the remaining 35 cases I had and buzzed out to the range today. 1 shot on target, adjust for 1.5" high/200 yard zero since they'll only be shooting at coyotes if anything, no slipping turrets, 5 to confirm. I would normally do 10 but my cover hasn't showed up yet and by shot #6 mirage starts getting terrible, and this rifle has a track record of shooting about 1" for 10 shots with another combo, and I was racing light.

Tikka T3X Veil 6.5 PRC
Trijicon Credo HX 4-16x50 - UM rings
57gr H1000, CCI 200, 140 Sierra TGK