Rifle shots on elk survey!

[RCB]

Folks,

There's an old study of whitetail deer rifle shots from the South Carolina game department. They surveyed a bunch of hunters who took shots on whitetails, and recorded lots of data - distance of shot, whether it was hit, whether animal was harvested, distance animal traveled, caliber of rifle, bullet type, shot placement, etc. From this, they ran statistics on, for example, how far was the average shot, which bullets were most effective, how far did the animals travel after the shot, which shot placement was most effective, etc. The link to the study is here: http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html

I've always thought it would be cool to do the same thing for elk, to see how they differ from deer. For example, SC found that soft, rapid-expansion bullets appeared to be more effective on deer than hard bullets, at least for quick kills - but would we see the opposite for a big animal like elk? It occurred to me that we have a treasure trove of potential data on this forum from you hunters. So, if you're willing, I'd love to take a poll here, collect data, and run similar statistics on elk. I'll share all data and methods for full transparency. With enough participation we might see some cool results. I work with data and statistics on a daily basis (with PhD), so I'm confident I can do a good job (but will happily take suggestions and criticisms).

To participate in the poll, please provide the following information on the last 5 elk you have shot at with a rifle - including the ones you did not successfully harvest!:
-Cartridge of rifle (e.g. 30-06 Springfield)
-Bullet used (e.g. 165 gr Nosler Partition)
-(I plan on using typical factory load data to estimate velocity and energy at various distances, but if you know the muzzle velocity of your shot is different from typical, do provide it.)
-Bull or cow?
-FOR EACH SHOT you took on the animal:
-Distance of the shot
-Position of shot (standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, etc)
-Whether the animal was hit or missed
-If hit, where the animal was hit (e.g., heart, lungs, liver, guts, head, spine, shoulder, etc. provide as much detail as you like.)
-If hit, did the bullet pass all the way through?
-Whether the animal was successfully recovered
-If recovered, about how many yards from the *first hit* on the animal did you recover it (e.g. 0 yards if DRT, but potentially many more if you had to track it)

If you can provide data for family members (kid, spouse), please do so.

The reason I am asking for the last 5 elk is because this will ensure that you do not cherry-pick (subconsciously or not) specific examples and therefore bias the data - like longer or better shots. Of course, if you can remember back more than 5 elk, please provide them. Please be honest about missing shots! Many numbers will require rough estimates (like distance traveled by animal), so please just do the best you can.

With this data I'll be able to do more advanced stats than the South Carolina study did. Questions I could attempt to answer are:
Does kinetic energy on impact predict killing effectiveness? What about caliber? Bullet type? Velocity? Are pass-throughs better than bullets that stop in the animal?
How does the probability of recovering an elk decrease with distance of shot? How does this vary with shooting position?
It's likely that some of these questions won't have conclusive answers, of course. But, the more data we get, the more conclusive the statistical analysis will be!

I'll go first - I've only shot at one cow.

1. 308 Win, 150 Federal Trophy Copper factory load. Cow. Took one shot, standing offhand at about 50 yards, quartering-away. Hit the lungs, full pass-through. Animal was successfully recovered, probably about 50 yards away from point of impact.

If you have any suggestions or criticisms of the survey, please share.

PS I did a similar poll on just shooting distances for all species over on the hunttalk forum. Results are here: https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/forum-stats-on-shooting-distances-and-positions.290681/
Example results: median shot distance was 150 yards. Only 5% of shots were beyond 400 yds. About 1/3 of shots 100 yards or less. A good mix of standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone shots.

 

[OXN939]

Cool idea; there's definitely a treasure trove of information on here that could be interpreted into a very interesting case study. Here's mine for my one elk.

-Cartridge of rifle: .300 WSM
-Bullet used: 165 gr. Nosler Partition
-Bull or cow? Cow
-FOR EACH SHOT you took on the animal:
-Distance of the shot: 95 yds
-Position of shot: kneeling
-Whether the animal was hit or missed: Hit
-If hit, where the animal was hit: Heart. The heart was destroyed almost completely by the wound cavity.
-If hit, did the bullet pass all the way through? Yes
-Whether the animal was successfully recovered: Yes
-If recovered, about how many yards from the *first hit* on the animal did you recover it: 2 yards. Animal looked up, took one step, and collapsed.

 

[5MilesBack]

To participate in the poll, please provide the following information on the last 5 elk you have shot at with a rifle - including the ones you did not successfully harvest!:
-Cartridge of rifle (e.g. 30-06 Springfield)
-Bullet used (e.g. 165 gr Nosler Partition)
-(I plan on using typical factory load data to estimate velocity and energy at various distances, but if you know the muzzle velocity of your shot is different from typical, do provide it.)
-Bull or cow?
-FOR EACH SHOT you took on the animal:
-Distance of the shot
-Position of shot (standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, etc)
-Whether the animal was hit or missed
-If hit, where the animal was hit (e.g., heart, lungs, liver, guts, head, spine, shoulder, etc. provide as much detail as you like.)
-If hit, did the bullet pass all the way through?
-Whether the animal was successfully recovered
-If recovered, about how many yards from the *first hit* on the animal did you recover it (e.g. 0 yards if DRT, but potentially many more if you had to track it)

I'll just include the last bull I shot with a rifle before going to only archery. Too many details for too many elk in the past to remember them all, but I've never lost an elk to a rifle. Longest shot about 225, and all shots were freehand.

7mm Rem Mag
175gr Nosler Partitions - handloads probably about 2970fps.
1st shot - 25 yards in the timber, tried to break down his left shoulder because there was a blowdown covering a lot of his chest. Bullet did not exit.
2nd shot - about 8 yards as he ran towards me quartering too me, entered left shoulder exited in front of his right ham.
3rd shot - about 12 yards as he turned and ran, entered in front of his right ham and exited in front of his left shoulder.
4th shot - about 20 yards broadside behind left shoulder, exited.
Position of the shot......standing. The 2nd and 3rd shots were shot from the hip.
The bull probably went 50-70 yards from the first hit before going down.

 

[Blinddog]

Browning Abolt 7mm 160gr. accubond hand load,
Bull in my picture; first shot 376 yards. Standing, resting riffle against tree. Hit lungs just behind front shoulder, clean through. Elk stopped in tracks, second shot 350 yards resting on tree, Hit 2 inches lower and caught top of heart, passed clean through. Elk dropped after a min. or two.
from the first shot to second bull moved less than 1 yard.

 

[RCB]

Browning Abolt 7mm 160gr. accubond hand load,
Bull in my picture; first shot 376 yards. Standing, resting riffle against tree. Hit lungs just behind front shoulder, clean through. Elk stopped in tracks, second shot 350 yards resting on tree, Hit 2 inches lower and caught top of heart, passed clean through. Elk dropped after a min. or two.
from the first shot to second bull moved less than 1 yard.

Two clarifying questions:
1. Is that a 7mm rem mag? 7mm-08?
2. About how many yards between the location where he was first shot and where he finally expired? You said a minute or two... maybe 50 to 100 yards?

 

[elkhunter752]

Remington model 700 in 30-06 with 180 gr. Nosler Partitions for all of my last 5 rifle elk. All 5 were bulls. The last 2 were 6-points and the 3 before that were all 5-points. All were hit. All were successfully recovered.

2018 - 90 yard off-hand frontal shot. One shot. Ran about 70 yards. Lots of damage to the lungs and some to the heart.

2017 - 160 yard shot off one knee. One shot broadside. One follow-up quartering towards me. First shot passed through both lungs. Second shot hit him in a front kneecap. 0 yard recovery.

2016 - 150 yard shot off one knee. Broadside to slightly quartering away. 2 shots. First shot hit the liver and one lung. Pass through. Second shot hit him in the neck and dropped him. 0 yard recovery.

2015 - 125 yard shot off-hand. Broadside. One shot. High lung shot through both lungs. Pass-through. 10 yard recovery.

2014 - 150 yard shot off-hand. Broadside but turned to face me as I shot. Hit him in the jugular luckily. 25 yard recovery. I think he made 2 big jumps and then slid the rest of the way.

 

[alindsey1237]

I have only shot one elk with a rifle it was a small 5 point.

28 nosler 195 gr. berger VLD muzzle velocity of 3196 fps

750 yards, prone, double lunged traveled approximately 25 yards and died.

 

[Blinddog]

Two clarifying questions:
1. Is that a 7mm rem mag? 7mm-08?
2. About how many yards between the location where he was first shot and where he finally expired? You said a minute or two... maybe 50 to 100 yards?

1) 7MM
2) I meant he stood there for a min or two before falling over dead. he maby went a yard from where first shot hit him.

 

[missjordan]

You might find some interesting data setting this survey up in google forms or something similar


1.) 2011- .308 Remington model 7. Hornady 165gr (don’t remember specific bullet besides that). Bull. Distance- 60 yards standing heart shot. Don’t remember if the bullet passed thru. Recovered 80-100 yards away

2.) 2016- .338 Lapua Savage 110. Berger 300 grain elite hunter. Bull. Distance 960 yards lung shot laying prone. Bullet did not pass thru. Bull dropped in his tracks so recovered on the spot

3. 2017- .338 Lapua Christensen Arms BA Tactical. Berger 300 grain elite hunter. Bull. Distance 355 yards lung shot laying prone. Bullet did not pass thru. Bull dropped in his tracks so recovered on the spot also

4.) 2018- .338 Lapua Christensen Arms BA Tactical. Berger 300 grain elite hunter. Bull. Distance 475 yards, shooting down on the bull, aimed in the middle of his shoulder blades/back also laying prone. Bullet did not pass thru. Bull dropped in his tracks so 3rd recovery in a row that was on the spot also

5.) 2018 husbands elk .338 Lapua Christensen Arms BA Tactical. Berger 300 grain elite hunter. Bull. Distance 1100 yards lung shot laying prone. Bullet did not pass thru. Bull trotted off 100 yards and flopped over





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[highstepper]

2017 6x6, 380 yds. 7mm Remington Mag, Nosler Accubond 168gr Long Range , Nosler "Trophy Grade" Factory Ammo
Hit behind shoulder, bullet passed through lungs, clipping a vertebral body with bone fragments shredding the aorta. Almost DRT except for sliding head first 10 yds downhill on a very steep slope. Bullet under the hide on the off side, perfect mushroom, 95% weight retention.
More to come...

 

[tttoadman]

2012:
spike
300 Win Mag, Barnes TTSX 165
50 yds
he went about 100yds
rested against a tree standing

2013:
5x5
300 Win mag, Barnes TTSX 165,
400-425
hit 3 times,
He went about 75yds
shot from a side hill using shooting sticks

2016:
5x5
.270 Barnes TTSX 130
350 yds
dropped within 10ft
shot off top of pack from a sit/knee

2017:
Big Bull, likely my best
.270 Barnes TTSX 130
100 yds facing away at a steep angle
from a knee
I hit outside the shoulder blade and it basically messed up his shoulder and he ran off. Dropped a little puddle of blood when he stopped for a minute. We tracked him for 2 miles. Never saw him again. my biggest fail ever. This is where I wonder if my old .300 win mag would have gotten the job done in spite of a bad shot.

2018:
6x6
.270 Barnes TTSX 130
10yds (yes ten yds)
sitting
dropped in about 15ft

edited 9/27/19 to correct weight of .270 from 110 to 130.

 

[JP100]

Only shot one 'elk' ( red/elk hybrid),

-Cartridge of rifle: .303 BRITISH
-Bullet used: 180gn Winchester Power point
-Bull or cow? Bull
-FOR EACH SHOT you took on the animal:
-Distance of the shot: 60-70 yards
-Position of shot: kneeling
-Whether the animal was hit or missed: Hit
-If hit, where the animal was hit: Heart. Higher shoulder shot
-If hit, did the bullet pass all the way through? Yes
-Whether the animal was successfully recovered: Yes
-If recovered, about how many yards from the *first hit* on the animal did you recover it: Around 10-15 yards. Shot was higher shoulder shot as the Bull was bedded, immobilized him and he was pretty done, I shot him again at about 5 yards(thought her shoulder) to end his pains. Both shots pass throughs

My main .303 I use is a No5 MK1 so has a short barrel, probably about 2200ftps muzzle velocity with 180gns, these a reliable penetrator and expander. Have shot the full length of a mature red stag with these bullets(ie texas heart shot pass through).


Energy is a factor but not that important, reliable penetration and expansion are the most important, matching the bullet type to the expected velocity. This is the hard part with long range hunting, bullets cannot work across all velocity ranges.

My brother has shot one elk, a spiker with a .223 at around 350 yards, neck shot him.


There are two outlying cartridges to screw your data haha

 

[Extrapale]

2018 AZ big bodied 6x6
325 WSM 200 gr Nosler Partition @25ish yards in the thick timber and brush. All shots standing with no rest. First 2 shots through only opening in brush hit high double lung. Third shot 65 ish yards straight down between shoulder blades. 4th shot 5 yards in the neck as he was stagering around waiting to die. Total recovery 75 yards.

2018 OR average 5x5
Same gun and load
400 yards prone across my pack. My buddy shot another bull out of the group of six in their beds. Mine jumped up and ran a short ways sidehill. First shot double lung. Second shot lung heart shoulder hit at same distance. He went about 15 yards back to his bed and died.

2017 OR average 5x5
Same gun and load
75 yards broadside in open timber. Double lung hit standing with no rest. Went about 10 yards and died.

2016 OR average 6x6
Same gun and load
75 yards sitting with gun on my knee. Different buddy shot a 5x6 out of his bed on the edge of a small timbered draw. We knew there were 2 bulls with about 20 cows. The rest of the head ran out the other side of the draw onto an open hillside and stopped. I shot almost straight down behind the shoulder on the 1st shot. Bull walked back into the draw and stood at about 50 yards where I shot him in the neck. 25 yard recovery from 1st shot.

2015 NV large 6x6
TC encore 50 cal muzzleloader Nosler 300 gr BT bullets.
40ish yard shot on standing bull from prone position. Double lung hit. He traveled about 50 yards and layed down. I thought he was done when I got to him but he jumped up while I was setting my stuff down. I took a snap shot as he lunged away from only 3 yards, but I hit just in front of the hind quarter. He made it another 20 or so yards. Total recovery was 75ish yards


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[RCB]

2012:
spike
300 Win Mag, Barnes TTSX 165
50 yds
he went about 100yds
rested against a tree standing

2013:
5x5
300 Win mag, Barnes TTSX 165,
400-425
hit 3 times,
He went about 75yds
shot from a side hill using shooting sticks

2016:
5x5
.270 Barnes TTSX 110
350 yds
dropped within 10ft
shot off top of pack from a sit/knee

2017:
Big Bull, likely my best
.270 Barnes TTSX 110
100 yds facing away at a steep angle
from a knee
I hit outside the shoulder blade and it basically messed up his shoulder and he ran off. Dropped a little puddle of blood when he stopped for a minute. We tracked him for 2 miles. Never saw him again. my biggest fail ever. This is where I wonder if my old .300 win mag would have gotten the job done in spite of a bad shot.

2018:
6x6
.270 Barnes TTSX 110
10yds (yes ten yds)
sitting
dropped in about 15ft

tttoadman, thanks for sharing the 2017 bull. I'm sure it's hard to share an instance where you lose a great bull. Do you suspect you just hit the shoulder but didn't get into the vitals?

 

[tttoadman]

tttoadman, thanks for sharing the 2017 bull. I'm sure it's hard to share an instance where you lose a great bull. Do you suspect you just hit the shoulder but didn't get into the vitals?

I think that is exactly it. There is no way it could have gotten on the inside and not ended up with a kill. I sat there and looked at him with his head down facing straight away. I waited until he turned and I just screwed up and likely shot too soon. He was right on the edge of a bench and a couple steps and he would have been gone. With his head down on the ground, the 4's were about a foot over his back and a foot or so out each side. I was mesmerized and he won the day. I never stop learning the hard way!!

 

[Hhardrockminer]

Hey ttoad,
I will say one thing and that is at least you're learning, many have the experience of that happening maybe differently but don't learn from their mistakes.
I have gone many times to what I should have done but in all I'm still trying to learn something every day.
I tell everyone "can't expect a lot from me seeing as they burnt down the school to get me out of third grade". Just my way and type of humor SORRY guys it's just me.

 

[Battletoad]

Only have one

-Cartridge of rifle - 7mm rem mag
-Bullet used - 160 grain accubond
- 2900 fps
-Bull
-Distance of the shot - 225,225,50 yds
-Position of shot- kneeling, kneeling, offhand
-Whether the animal was hit or miss- all 3 hit
-If hit, where the animal was hit - liver, one lung/liver, spine in front of hindquarter
- Recovered two bullets
-Whether the animal was successfully recovered - yes
-If recovered, about how many yards from the *first hit* on the animal did you recover - 200 yds ( after first two shots bull came running right towards me through the timber and spine shot dropped him)

 

[El Gavilan]

Only rifle elk I’ve shot, Remington 660, 6.5 mm rem mag, 120 gr factory load. 425 yards across a canyon, standing broadside, 4x4 rag horn bull. Shooting off a large ponderosa pine limb, hit right behind the shoulder and the bull did a front flip landing on his back with all 4 feet in the air, died right there. Bullet was under the hide on the back side.


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[Marble]

Elk #1
7mm mag, 150 sciroco@3240 fps
475 yards
Hit high in ribs, blew big artery on spine. Instant death.

Elk #2
Same gun, bull
350ish yards. Unlike on where I hit it, it was dark and stormy. Died about 400 yards later.

Elk #3 same gun
475 yards, on move hit in right rear upper leg. Went through artery, ent about 300 yards, laid down, put bullet to head.

#4cow. Same gun
375 yards, 3 shots through ribs, went about 40 yards.

5 cow, same gun
100 yards, through jugular, ran 100 yards, follow up shot in neck.

6 bull, same gun
100 yards in bed, first shot in ribs. Second in neck.

#7 same gun
300 yards, loose screw on scope mount caused gun to be off by 2'. Hit in neck twice, shoulder, top of back, antler twice, then spine. Total shit show. Probably 3/4 mile tracking job.

#8 bull 300 wm 180 nosler AB @3200 FPS
400 yards, double lung then neck twice, went 50 yards.

#9 bull same gun
250 yards, through ribs, went about 100 yards.

#10, same gun
Bull, 100 yards, shot in neck in bed.

#11 same gun
Bull, 35 yards, died where it stood, spine and vitals.

12 same gun
Bull, 150 yards, shot in neck in bed, instant death.

13 same gun
Bull, 150 yards, frontal through neck. Died instantly.

14 same gun
110 yards, head, instant death.

15 same gun
25 yards, bull had been shot twice prior to me finding it, one through the guts and one through front right leg. 300 yards with 7mm stw 160 grain Nosler AB @3150FPS. My shot was in the neck in its bed.

#16 (hunting partners bull)
Bull, 7 stw at 500ish yards. Wounded and never recovered. Tracked about 2 miles and shot it one more time thru fleshy part of neck. Not recovered.

There are some cows and few other bulls I cant recall.

 

[Sled]

i mostly bow hunt.

1. cow 250yd prone in snow. w/ bipod. 270win 130gr Nos AB double lung pencil through. went 50 yards until the cavity filled up. there was no blood trail as the lung had plugged off the hole.

2. calf 100yd offhand on a knee. 270 wsm 150gr Nosler BT 2800 fps. 3 shots. one double lung and two through the heart. cup and some core found on the off side hide. i was on a small farm for this one and kept shooting while it was standing as i didn't want it to go anywhere.

3. cow 460yd prone in snow w/ bipod. 270 wsm 150 Nos BT. 2 shots double lung w/ cup and a small amount of core found on off side hide. she went about 20 yards. 1 shot was fatal but since i don't shoot bones and heavy meat i feel fine putting another in the lungs.

4. calf 100 yards standing offhand though lite brush. 270 wsm 130 barnes ttsx 1 lung and liver passing though stomach. never recovered the bullet but the animal went 10 yards and fell. before it fell i took another shot while it was standing there. the shot felt good but did not hit. learned a lot about bullet deflection on this hunt. the calf did require a finishing shot when i got to it.