Short ATA bows and forgiveness !!!!!!!!!!

ontarget7

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I have to give props in technology because these short ATA bows nowadays can flat out perform. My Hoyt Spyder 30 just continues to impress me. Today I went to the range with the intent to sight in a new sight. Well the range was just about under water from the snow we have gotten lately.
I ended up squeeezing in 20,50 and 100 yards to get a real world match for my sight tape so I could compare to my chrono readings. Here is a groups at 50 yards. My average was probably 3-3 1/2" at 50 but put up a few like this one. I wouldn't let specs be the end all of forgiveness and find it more mental than anything.
 

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Ethan S.

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Nice shooting! I am betting you had a little to do with that group though, it wasn't all the bow!
 
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ontarget7

ontarget7

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Ontarget what have you to say about the short ATA bows and longer draws? I have a 30" draw and I keep hearing that a short ATA Bow isn't good for me.

This is very common to hear these things. It really depends on your anchor and reference points and this is based off of your facial structures. I know guys that shoot the short ATA bows very well but then I know guys that don't. I would not take anybodies word for it and I would really try to shoot them for yourself. Most the guys that don't like them do not give them the chance or don't make settle changes to get the required reference points at anchor. This is what it comes down to, the more reference points the more repeatable you will be as an archer. This is saying form, spine and tune are all where they need to be of coarse. I find some of these shorter bows every bit as stable as the longer ATA bows.
 

Coyote Commander

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I shot a short ATA bow for an entire summer. Four months and thousands of arrows.

I learned I shot it VERY well.......on the range.

But when I put myself into field situations, severe uphill/downhill, kneeling/crouching/leaning around brush, tired, etc etc, I did NOT shoot it as well as my longer bows.

When your draw length exceeds your ATA, you run into a situation where accuracy is extremely dependent on form, especially with these new bows with ultra light risers and low central mass weight to them. Usually, form is the first thing that goes out the window in field situations.
 

Lukem

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This is what it comes down to, the more reference points the more repeatable you will be as an archer. This is saying form, spine and tune are all where they need to be of coarse. I find some of these shorter bows every bit as stable as the longer ATA bows.
Isn't forgiveness about still shooting good when everything isn't perfect? I had an AM32 that I could shoot well out to 100, but everything had to be spot on. I also had a Commander shoot thru that I could shoot the same POI both left and right handed. That's forgiveness.
 

Jake Leibke

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I had a CRX 32, had. Shot it for a year and a half. I just couldn't get used to the short ata with my 29.5" draw length.
 

Moose Drool

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Same hear, shooting a carbon element right now and my nose does not touch the string. I am a 29.5 inch draw length as well. I shoot well but I just feel more comfortable with the longer ata and my next bow will prob be 34 or 35.
 
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ontarget7

ontarget7

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Isn't forgiveness about still shooting good when everything isn't perfect? I had an AM32 that I could shoot well out to 100, but everything had to be spot on. I also had a Commander shoot thru that I could shoot the same POI both left and right handed. That's forgiveness.

Yes, that would be exactly forgiveness and the reason why I feel alot of these short ATA bows are very forgiving. With the Spyder 30 even when I know I blew the shot it really isn't that far off the mark. I feel a lot of this is related to your spine and overall tune. Lots of things that make up forgiveness. The biggest reason I feel some don't think they are that forgiving are more related to the arrows they selected and overall tune. Generally speaking these shorter bows are faster than the longer ATA's and your dynamic spine needs to be chose appropriately.
 
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ontarget7

ontarget7

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Same hear, shooting a carbon element right now and my nose does not touch the string. I am a 29.5 inch draw length as well. I shoot well but I just feel more comfortable with the longer ata and my next bow will prob be 34 or 35.

Have you tried slight modifications to your anchor to accommodate this? I am a 29" draw myself and tune many bows at different draw length.
 

Maxhunter

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Same hear, shooting a carbon element right now and my nose does not touch the string. I am a 29.5 inch draw length as well. I shoot well but I just feel more comfortable with the longer ata and my next bow will prob be 34 or 35.

I've a 27.5 draw and the string doesn't touch my nose either but it's close. Big thing is having a consistent anchor. My buddy has the same draw as you and he won't shoot anything less than 34".
 
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ontarget7

ontarget7

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What do feel the key factors are when looking for forgiveness in a new bow purchase ? Just curious and would like to hear what the general consensus would be.
 

Lukem

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Yes, that would be exactly forgiveness and the reason why I feel alot of these short ATA bows are very forgiving. With the Spyder 30 even when I know I blew the shot it really isn't that far off the mark. I feel a lot of this is related to your spine and overall tune. Lots of things that make up forgiveness. The biggest reason I feel some don't think they are that forgiving are more related to the arrows they selected and overall tune. Generally speaking these shorter bows are faster than the longer ATA's and your dynamic spine needs to be chose appropriately.
But isn't that the point about short ATA bows being less forgiving, that they need to be more properly tuned, spine selection is more critical, etc.? Won't a longer ATA, longer brace bow more often (don't want to say "always") be more forgiving than an equally tuned bow of shorter ATA and brace? It's a matter of physics.
 

Moose Drool

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Have you tried slight modifications to your anchor to accommodate this? I am a 29" draw myself and tune many bows at different draw length.

Tried to make it so my nose touched the string but I just felt more comfortable with my old stand by anchor point. Don't have a problem being consistent just had to get used to shooting with out my nose touching the string.
 
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ontarget7

ontarget7

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But isn't that the point about short ATA bows being less forgiving, that they need to be more properly tuned, spine selection is more critical, etc.? Won't a longer ATA, longer brace bow more often (don't want to say "always") be more forgiving than an equally tuned bow of shorter ATA and brace? It's a matter of physics.

Well with today's modern bows I feel ATA is becoming less important in your hunting situations. The reason why, we are starting to see longer risers and more parallel limb bows. For instance the riser on the Hoyt Pro Comp is just about the same length of the Spyder 30 but their ATA measurements are about 8" apart. I feel the riser and parallel limbs have made these shorter ATA bows a forgiving platform to the shooter. Now you mentioned tuning. It really doesn't matter what bow we shoot you are either tuned or you are not. These shorter bows are faster and maybe the majority of the population is not that knowledgeable to arrow spine. Its not that these bows are picky to spine, you just need to be given the knowledge of the right spine as well as dynamic spine for a particular bows specs. These shorter bows do need to be tuned accordingly to equal the forgiveness but IMO this is where most your archery shops are falling short. I can't remember being in a shop where they even consider yoke tuning a bow to improve lateral nock travel. Then a good portion are selling arrows that are way underspined for the IBO speeds of these bows today. Its know wonder why they have the reputation of being unforgiving but honestly its not that they are unforgiving when the proper steps are taken to tune them, including choosing the right dynamic spine.
 

Lukem

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So would a longer riser make Hoyt's target bows that much better?

I don't disagree that the longer risers help distribute the weight farther away from the center line making the bows more stable vertically. But again, all things being equal (think BT General vs Sentinel generally), wouldn't a longer ATA bow generally be more forgiving? I don't doubt that the newer bows are more forgiving than their counterparts of years past, but a longer ATA should be more forgiving because of the general physics than that of shorter bow. Also, no doubt that a short ATA can be shot very well. Your pic shows that. I guess I'm becoming more confused about what this thread is actually about.

The bow tech at the Scheels in Rapid City yoke tunes everything that he gets his hands on.

I like shooting about a 34" bow. Nice balance of longer bow but keeping weight down a bit.
 

jmez

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But isn't that the point about short ATA bows being less forgiving, that they need to be more properly tuned, spine selection is more critical, etc.? Won't a longer ATA, longer brace bow more often (don't want to say "always") be more forgiving than an equally tuned bow of shorter ATA and brace? It's a matter of physics.

The physics part is definitely true. You can improve on it but you sure can't defy the laws of nature. The question becomes is the difference between the two significant? When you are trying to bust X's and 1/4 of an inch can be the difference between winning and not, it makes a huge difference. Just look down the line at a pro shoot and see what those guys are using.

Hitting a 15 inch vital area on an elk much less of a concern. Likely not a significant difference and won't be noticed. One area where it can be a big concern is when you are pinned down, have to lean around a tree and get a shot off at 40 yards with a big bull elk screaming in your face. And you are shooting an arrow tipped with a broadhead. Less forgiving can sure play a part in this scenario.
 

Lukem

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The physics part is definitely true. You can improve on it but you sure can't defy the laws of nature. The question becomes is the difference between the two significant? When you are trying to bust X's and 1/4 of an inch can be the difference between winning and not, it makes a huge difference. Just look down the line at a pro shoot and see what those guys are using.

Hitting a 15 inch vital area on an elk much less of a concern. Likely not a significant difference and won't be noticed. One area where it can be a big concern is when you are pinned down, have to lean around a tree and get a shot off at 40 yards with a big bull elk screaming in your face. And you are shooting an arrow tipped with a broadhead. Less forgiving can sure play a part in this scenario.
And carrying that shorter bow is a lot more "forgiving" than carrying a 38" tank... :)
 
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