Standard die tweaks for better results

[SDHNTR]

Most of my dies for guns that I shoot a lot use match grade seaters and bushing dies. No complaints with them. But for a handful of the rounds that I don’t shoot as much I just use some standard RCBS and Redding regular FL sizing and standard seating dies. I definitely notice better concentricity out of the better quality dies. I don’t want to replace the standard dies I have.

Are there any set up or usage tweaks to get better results out of standard dies? I’ve always questioned how well the seating die really straightens out that bullet when just set in the case mouth with my fingers. And obviously the neck is seriously getting worked over during sizing. Can anything be done to minimize the negative effects?

At the bullet I tend to get .004-.006” deviation and higher ES with standard dies versus .001-.003 with match dies.

 

[N2TRKYS]

What are you considering as high ES?

 

[TAArrowood]

The combination that I use and have had great success with is the combination that you have except that I take the expander ball out of the sizing die and leave the neck original size.. I then run the cases through a LEE collet neck sizing die (They are super cheap). The LEE collet has a mandrel that is usually two thousandths under the bullet size.. The collet squeezes the neck down to the bullet size minus two thousandths.. The mandrel is free floating and does not induce runout into the neck.. Also, if you want more/less neck tension you can polish the mandrel very lightly to get a few more tenths of neck tension or order a new mandrel to the exact size you want. (very cheap).. I then seat the bullet with a standard RCBS seating die.. For really good loads I do the same thing except that I use Forster Benchrest dies with micro seater.. Good luck..

 

[N2TRKYS]

I use regular RCBS full length 2 die sets and get in the 20s and teens with some single digits.

 

[jeremy.b]

I deprime with a dedicated depriming die.

Then in my cheap RCBS/Redding dies I run the expander ball as far up near the neck section of the die as possible and keep it slightly loose. This helps avoid adding excessive run-out on the downstroke while expanding the neck.

If I use cheap brass I pretty much have to neck turn and trim to eliminate fliers on one or two rifles. I don't have too many issues with needing to sort by volume/mass yet though, but my cheap brass is generally all the same lot so that helps a bit.

 

[SDHNTR]

Then in my cheap RCBS/Redding dies I run the expander ball as far up near the neck section of the die as possible and keep it slightly loose. This helps avoid adding excessive run-out on the downstroke while expanding the neck.

This is the kind of tip I was looking for. I decap separately, by hand. So you adjust the expander ball up as high into the die as you can, and then you leave the collar at the top of the die loose? Am I understanding that correctly?

and I always the runout was created on the up stroke, pulling the expander ball back up through the neck. Right?

 

[jeremy.b]

This is the kind of tip I was looking for. I decap separately, by hand. So you adjust the expander ball up as high into the die as you can, and then you leave the collar at the top of the die loose? Am I understanding that correctly?

and I always the runout was created on the up stroke, pulling the expander ball back up through the neck. Right?

Correct. Run out generally is introduced during the expanding stroke, hence why bushing dies can have less runout, since there is no expansion stroke.

Keeping the expander ball (if you need it for setting neck tension of course) as close to the neck reduces runout induced by an off-center expander ball (which can be exaggerated if it's fully extended for depriming) and/or movement in the press ram.

Keeping the depriming rod slightly loose and allowing the expander ball float a little also helps.

It's been years since I dug up the technique but it definitely works, especially for longer cartridges.

Edit: This is a fairly recent example of this technique over on LRH: https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/tuning-sizing-dies-for-low-runout.222223/post-1659945

 

[Finaddictions]

It also works to remove the expander ball so it’s not pulling through the neck. This is where the runout is created because there’s nothing supporting the case to be square allowing the neck to be pulled off center. After sizing without the expander ball, insert the expander stem in the die just as described above, so it’s sitting high up in the die, and then PUSH the expander ball through the neck. Now the die is somewhat supporting the case, but more importantly, the case is held square by being pushed down onto the shell holder. It’s a 2 step process but does help quite a bit in the runout department.

 

[Wrench]

Lee collet dies are a secret weapon. The forster press with it's floating system is also a treat.

You can rotate the case/bullet a couple times during the seating process.

 

[SDHNTR]

View attachment 516120

Correct. Run out generally is introduced during the expanding stroke, hence why bushing dies can have less runout, since there is no expansion stroke.

Keeping the expander ball (if you need it for setting neck tension of course) as close to the neck reduces runout induced by an off-center expander ball (which can be exaggerated if it's fully extended for depriming) and/or movement in the press ram.

Keeping the depriming rod slightly loose and allowing the expander ball float a little also helps.

It's been years since I dug up the technique but it definitely works, especially for longer cartridges.

Edit: This is a fairly recent example of this technique over on LRH: https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/tuning-sizing-dies-for-low-runout.222223/post-1659945

Very helpful. Thanks for taking the time!

 

[SDHNTR]

It also works to remove the expander ball so it’s not pulling through the neck. This is where the runout is created because there’s nothing supporting the case to be square allowing the neck to be pulled off center. After sizing without the expander ball, insert the expander stem in the die just as described above, so it’s sitting high up in the die, and then PUSH the expander ball through the neck. Now the die is somewhat supporting the case, but more importantly, the case is held square by being pushed down onto the shell holder. It’s a 2 step process but does help quite a bit in the runout department.

I’m not really following you. Once you push the expander down into the neck, don’t you have to pull it back out? Thus creating the problem again?

 

[SDHNTR]

Lee collet dies are a secret weapon. The forster press with it's floating system is also a treat.

You can rotate the case/bullet a couple times during the seating process.

I keep hearing about the Lee Collet dies but I’m really trying to not buy more stuff. I do rotate the case a couple of times while seating.

 

[TAArrowood]

Another thing that the Lee collet die adds is very consistent bullet tension. The neck cannot get any tighter that the mandrel size. This helps with consistency, especially if the case neck thickness varies. In the case of “s” type neck sizing it is forcing the neck into a precisely sized bushing. The bushing has to be matched to the neck thickness. If you have variations in neck wall thickness you have to tweak the setup with different sized bushings to accommodate that. With the Lee Collet neck sizing it is a non issue since the mandrel controls the neck tension.

This also minimizes how much you “work” your brass which usually extend its life.

 

[NW Hunt€r]

Lee collet dies are a secret weapon. The forster press with it's floating system is also a treat.

You can rotate the case/bullet a couple times during the seating process.

This^^^^^^^

 

[Rob5589]

The only thing I found that helped was dropping the expander ball from the sizing die and using an expander mandrel. This was with match type reloads, I haven't t used it with my hunting loads. You can choose how much interference you want. I can tell a difference in runout and how the bullet seats.

 

[HONEYBADGER]

A little trick I picked up from an old timer to limit runout. Seat the bullet half way, spin the case around 180 degrees and seat the rest of the way. Seems to keep runout down to a very bare minimum with very little effort.

 

[Wrench]

The lee collet sizes all the brass to the center regardless of brass thickness. You are not overworking the brass. They are cheap and effective.

 

[SDHNTR]

The lee collet sizes all the brass to the center regardless of brass thickness. You are not overworking the brass. They are cheap and effective.

Then are you using a body die too, for FL sizing as a first step?

Again I already have standard FL dies and am trying not to have to buy more stuff or add more steps.

 

[Wrench]

I have 5 firings on 223ai brass with just the 223rem collet die.

I have a similar story on the 260ai. I gave away my body die with the last barrel I spun up and have not replaced it. It just gets a 260rem lee collet resize.

When I did run the body die I was getting very little contact. My chambers are minimum headspace and near zero runout though.

 

[SDHNTR]

I have 5 firings on 223ai brass with just the 223rem collet die.

I have a similar story on the 260ai. I gave away my body die with the last barrel I spun up and have not replaced it. It just gets a 260rem lee collet resize.

When I did run the body die I was getting very little contact. My chambers are minimum headspace and near zero runout though.

That makes sense. I never seem to have that kind of luck though.