Wolves in Colorado

[BuzzH]

The insinuation that wolves have little effect on moose, deer and elk populations is laughable.

Are there other factors- sure.

Heres a question for these supposed experts; If you knew of these many factors as they claim, then why would they inject an uncontrolled apex predator into the equation devastating Elk and moose populations further?

One only has to Google 'Wolf populations in Yellowstone' to produce charts that show as the wolves rise the elk decline- drastically. They finally leveling off with wolf population control in effect. [note; I posted a bunch of these charts in the ELK section of this forum under a similar thread]

The arrogance of this 'Pro Wolf' crowd is a joke. They claim they know what will happen with introducing these predators into a drastically changed ecosystem that has what- 1000x the human population of the 1800's when the humans decided wolves and people don't mix.

We have seen from experience in Yellowstone and the surrounding states that there are many secondary and tertiary uncontrollable effects. The lawsuits alone extract a huge price on the states and wildlife agencies. Huge economic costs. Loss of hunting opportunities...and on and on. We saw how poorly the reintroduction in Yellowstone accounted for all of the negatives.

Make no mistake, these quasi experts claim all sorts of supposed benefits to disguise the real reason they want wolves; they think it would be "Cool."

Its the definition of insanity to make the same mistake again.

..

Yeah, the wolves have impacted elk hunting so much since 1979 (when I could buy ONE elk tag in MT, ONE elk tag in ID, and ONE elk tag in WY per year). In Montana, I had to draw a special permit to kill a cow, now I can buy B-tags OTC, as a NR. I can now how have 3 elk tags in WY, 2 elk tags in ID, and 3 elk tags in Montana. My opportunities have not declined for killing elk since wolf reintroduction, and that's a fact that is not disputable. My opportunities to kill elk in all 3 of the wolf states is greater now than prior to wolf reintroduction.

Your assertions that wolves have decreased elk hunting opportunity doesn't reconcile with reality...at all. I have 3 WY elk tags in my pocket right now...and I'll fill all 3.

Yet again, the wolf issue brings out lots of raw emotion and no facts to back up the laundry list of unfounded assertions.

Plus, at the end of the day, there isn't no amount of whimpering by you that is going to change things.. That ship sailed when wolves were listed, wayyyy prior to reintroduction.

Wolves have been actively managed ever since they were reintroduced and continue to be managed today. No different than lions, black bears, fur bearers, trout, catfish, walleye, elk, moose, goats, sheep, non-game, etc. etc. etc.

I've seen nobody on these threads make the claim that wolves don't kill big-game, small game, each other, livestock, pets, etc. Not sure why you keep making those claims? Maybe you hang out too much on the PETA pages?

I'll continue to be an active participant in management and the decision making process with all wildlife just like I've been doing for the last 40 years. Not going to lose my mind over another predator/trophy game animal to manage and hunt.

In less than 2 months I'll be hunting bighorn sheep in Wyoming in wolf/griz central, hope to luck out and fill a wolf and black bear tag while I'm at it. You know, do something other than whimper on the net...

 

[Okhotnik]

Read it to me? you can recite it by heart.

Let me guess....written and reviewed by folks like yourself the didn't have a clue of the impacts this reintroduction would cause but are so invested in this they will never admit they made a mistake. God forbid you admit you were wrong. How does it feel to see all of your prediction blown to pieces? Or are you too arrogant to consider this?

Millions of dollars and thousands of man hours have been wasted on wolves......all while the moose and ungulate populations plummet.....but the scientists invested in this reintroduction are finding a silver lining....Oh sure. /sarcasm

Thats like getting all of your political news from Rachel Maddow....peer reviewed by her editors of course.

Thanks

Need sarcasm font

Thought the humane society link was obvious enough

I even tried to use Buzzh verbiage to make it look I was an expert

 

[BuzzH]

I even tried to use Buzzh verbiage to make it look I was an expert

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

 

[Beendare]

Heres a few facts that aren’t from OK’s link on the Humane society and thise vested in convincing us wolves were such a good idea of theirs.
Chart is from the YNP website, showing wolves rise and elk population tanking.



Did buzz really say wolves have been managed all along?

Heres a partial list from the USFW webpage listing actions on wolves. It seems almost all of these are reactions by USFW to lawsuits keeping them from “managing wolves”: ( thesite isnt taking an even partial list of these lawsuits- too long full list is on the FWP site)

NOTE; THERE ARE A FEW LAWSUITS IN HERE BY THE HUMANE SOCIETY

Link to FWP actions and suits against them HERE
At the FWP website

Note dates Feb 12, 2013 was one of the many lawsuits by the Humane society

Worth niting- THIS ^IS ONLY FEDERAL of course there are many others trying to tie up the individual states.


Oh but wolves have been managed all along eh?

This doesnt even consider wolves on indian res land. If you believe that the Indians are keeping good track of these wolves then I have some swampland in Florida to sell you

Which is essentially the load of horse Puckey that these guys are paddling right now

 

[Okhotnik]

Heres a few facts that aren’t from OK’s link on the Humane society and thise vested in convincing us wolves were such a good idea of theirs.
Chart is from the YNP website, showing wolves rise and elk population tanking.



Did buzz really say wolves have been managed all along?

Heres a partial list from the USFW webpage listing actions on wolves. It seems almost all of these are reactions by USFW to lawsuits keeping them from “managing wolves”: ( thesite isnt taking an even partial list of these lawsuits- too long full list is on the FWP site)

NOTE; THERE ARE A FEW LAWSUITS IN HERE BY THE HUMANE SOCIETY

Link to FWP actions and suits against them HERE
At the FWP website

Note dates Feb 12, 2013 was one of the many lawsuits by the Humane society

Worth niting- THIS ^IS ONLY FEDERAL of course there are many others trying to tie up the individual states.


Oh but wolves have been managed all along eh?

This doesnt even consider wolves on indian res land. If you believe that the Indians are keeping good track of these wolves then I have some swampland in Florida to sell you

Which is essentially the load of horse Puckey that these guys are paddling right now

Buzzh would never mislead you regarding wolves . Colorado, Utah Arizona , New Mexico please welcome Canadian grey wolves

 

[Beendare]

Call the Idaho or Mt game wardens and ask them if elk have changed their behavior because of wolves if you dont believe me. For that matter, ask anyone spending time in that country.

The pro wolf crowd doesnt ever address this.
For example
Elk are bedding out in wide open Meadows much more than they used to exposed to harsh weather just so that they have an early warning against wolf attack.

Another good factual vid on the unintended consequences of wolves, YouTube link

 

[Beendare]

Introducing wolves into heavily populated Colorado- Do you really want to trust the same guys that couldnt predict the many unintended consequences above?
Take a look at that list of lawsuits- crazy.

Wolves near housing tracts? Really? the Woodie oir Wolves crowd is lacking commom sense.

...

 

[slick]

Is shifting elk behavior due to wolf presence on the landscape detrimental to you? Are you by chance a livestock producer? - genuine curiosity.

Also- the GYE graphs you so vehemently refer to don’t show the last 3 years which show an uptick in the Northern Yellowstone elk population.

As Buzz has stated, the GYE states elk hunting opportunity is doing just fine, some of that increased opportunity is due to Commissioners and the Legislature- who kill far more elk than wolves do in a single year.

 

[slick]

Buzzh would never mislead you regarding wolves . Colorado, Utah Arizona , New Mexico please welcome Canadian grey wolves

At least Buzz comes to the table objectively, and recognizes what wolves are and what wolves aren’t.


Edit: suckered into another woof thread

 

[rob86jeep]

All these wolf threads crack me up (on here and facebook). The problem with all the hunters thinking they can stop this is laughable when they fail to address wildlife biologist studies tactfully and with an open mind. Who do you think the state will believe, a wildlife biologist who has a formal education in this field and is paid by the state or a hunter who always states "you have to be in to woods like me to actually know?"

I also hear about Yellowstone constantly as proof that wolves will decimate the elk population. But again, biologists claim other main reasons for the demise of the population there but hunters refuse to accept it as a possibility. This brings me back to my first comment, who do you think the state will believe?

I am by no means an expert on this and haven't even looked into it much. One thing is for sure though, when someone states that biologist studies are wrong because they're all liberals and don't spend time in the woods then I have a hard time believing anything else they say. I'm sure the state will only listen to tactful, logical discussions on this matter so a lot of people will just be spinning their wheels complaining on social media and not making even a small bit of difference in the matter. But keep it up, it is entertaining!

On another note, I heard one reason why the reintroduction of wolves by the state is good. If wolves just migrate down (which is/will happen), CPW will have a much harder time getting permission to manage them. If they introduce them, they will have a management plan already in place at the time of introduction. If there is any truth to this, then hunters should be pushing FOR the introduction of wolves to be on the front end of management.

 

[Beendare]

Is shifting elk behavior due to wolf presence on the landscape detrimental to you? Are you by chance a livestock producer? - genuine curiosity.

Also- the GYE graphs you so vehemently refer to don’t show the last 3 years which show an uptick in the Northern Yellowstone elk population.

As Buzz has stated, the GYE states elk hunting opportunity is doing just fine, some of that increased opportunity is due to Commissioners and the Legislature- who kill far more elk than wolves do in a single year.

My perspective? Objective..... I weigh the evidence, read history, and consider the source of info provided. Do you really think the same “scientist” types pushing for wolves are giving you an objective view?


Everyone loves to hate ranchers....no I've never raised livestock. I do know folks that do...and the challenges they have. My feeling is they are under appreciated.

Seems my chart from YNP didnt attach above


Pretty telling^
Have you noticed The pro wolf crowd will tell you there are “ other factors” even though many are miniscule. They avoid the fact these ungulates are a primary food source. Anything to avoid the obvious, uncontrolled wolves are decimating these elk herds.

Did you look at that chronology of actions/lawsuits on the USFWS website? How many millions of $$$ and thousands of man hours has this cost us?

Hunt opportunity? They mention elk but what about the loss of moose hunt opportunity? They say anything but, “ wolves are eating them”

The pro wolf crowd always deflects away from these real issues instead making it sound like wolves will bring us back in time to some fantasy balance of nature.
That ship has sailed. With human population is utilizing more of the wildlife habitat, trying to turn the clock back in time 300 years is a pipe dream.

We -humans-need to manage wildlife- not leave it up to an uncontrollable predator.

 

[slick]

Again, your graph is missing data. That graph is missing 7 Years worth of information. What has it done in that time frame? It has increased, but you continue to leave that out to further your stance.

Yes- millions of dollars has been wasted in litigation. Which is absurd- I agree. Just let the states manage them, that includes shooting some of them.

Landowners are under appreciated, we can also agree on that.

Moose populations also suffer from other things- ticks, worms, research mortality (Minnesota) There are plenty of studies that document cause specific mortality of moose. Wolves included. Yes, they affect moose populations, but managers look at the WHOLE picture. It’s not as simple as just one predator on the landscape.

I’m all for management of all species. Wolves don’t manage ungulates. That’s a farce that pro-wolfers push.

 

[Okhotnik]

Heres a few facts that aren’t from OK’s link on the Humane society and thise vested in convincing us wolves were such a good idea of theirs.
Chart is from the YNP website, showing wolves rise and elk population tanking.



Did buzz really say wolves have been managed all along?

Heres a partial list from the USFW webpage listing actions on wolves. It seems almost all of these are reactions by USFW to lawsuits keeping them from “managing wolves”: ( thesite isnt taking an even partial list of these lawsuits- too long full list is on the FWP site)

NOTE; THERE ARE A FEW LAWSUITS IN HERE BY THE HUMANE SOCIETY

Link to FWP actions and suits against them HERE
At the FWP website

Note dates Feb 12, 2013 was one of the many lawsuits by the Humane society

Worth niting- THIS ^IS ONLY FEDERAL of course there are many others trying to tie up the individual states.


Oh but wolves have been managed all along eh?

This doesnt even consider wolves on indian res land. If you believe that the Indians are keeping good track of these wolves then I have some swampland in Florida to sell you

Which is essentially the load of horse Puckey that these guys are paddling right now

Buzzh would never mislead you regarding wolves . Colorado, Utah Arizona , New Mexico please welcome Canadian grey wolves

My perspective? Objective..... I weigh the evidence, read history, and consider the source of info provided. Do you really think the same “scientist” types pushing for wolves are giving you an objective view?


Everyone loves to hate ranchers....no I've never raised livestock. I do know folks that do...and the challenges they have. My feeling is they are under appreciated.

Seems my chart from YNP didnt attach above
View attachment 109324

Pretty telling^
Have you noticed The pro wolf crowd will tell you there are “ other factors” even though many are miniscule. They avoid the fact these ungulates are a primary food source. Anything to avoid the obvious, uncontrolled wolves are decimating these elk herds.

Did you look at that chronology of actions/lawsuits on the USFWS website? How many millions of $$$ and thousands of man hours has this cost us?

Hunt opportunity? They mention elk but what about the loss of moose hunt opportunity? They say anything but, “ wolves are eating them”

The pro wolf crowd always deflects away from these real issues instead making it sound like wolves will bring us back in time to some fantasy balance of nature.
That ship has sailed. With human population is utilizing more of the wildlife habitat, trying to turn the clock back in time 300 years is a pipe dream.

We -humans-need to manage wildlife- not leave it up to an uncontrollable predator.

Is shifting elk behavior due to wolf presence on the landscape detrimental to you? Are you by chance a livestock producer? - genuine curiosity.

Also- the GYE graphs you so vehemently refer to don’t show the last 3 years which show an uptick in the Northern Yellowstone elk population.

As Buzz has stated, the GYE states elk hunting opportunity is doing just fine, some of that increased opportunity is due to Commissioners and the Legislature- who kill far more elk than wolves do in a single year.

Someone else who lives in an urban area with no wolves appears to hate those horrible farmers. I’ve noticed on sportsmen’s board a lot of animosity and blind ignorant hate of farmers and ranchers from those who live in urban areas. Most of this blind hate appears to be politically motivated.

The wolves have changed elk , deer moose behaviors and have pushed pushed a significant number of elk out of the back country down into low land farming areas onto open pasture areas. The elk stay there year round now where in the past they just wintered there and eat farmers’ crops, orchards and knock down fencing etc

The wolves follow and attack farmers’ livestock.

Urban

 

[Okhotnik]

All these wolf threads crack me up (on here and facebook). The problem with all the hunters thinking they can stop this is laughable when they fail to address wildlife biologist studies tactfully and with an open mind. Who do you think the state will believe, a wildlife biologist who has a formal education in this field and is paid by the state or a hunter who always states "you have to be in to woods like me to actually know?"

I also hear about Yellowstone constantly as proof that wolves will decimate the elk population. But again, biologists claim other main reasons for the demise of the population there but hunters refuse to accept it as a possibility. This brings me back to my first comment, who do you think the state will believe?

I am by no means an expert on this and haven't even looked into it much. One thing is for sure though, when someone states that biologist studies are wrong because they're all liberals and don't spend time in the woods then I have a hard time believing anything else they say. I'm sure the state will only listen to tactful, logical discussions on this matter so a lot of people will just be spinning their wheels complaining on social media and not making even a small bit of difference in the matter. But keep it up, it is entertaining!

On another note, I heard one reason why the reintroduction of wolves by the state is good. If wolves just migrate down (which is/will happen), CPW will have a much harder time getting permission to manage them. If they introduce them, they will have a management plan already in place at the time of introduction. If there is any truth to this, then hunters should be pushing FOR the introduction of wolves to be on the front end of management.

So if a 1/2 dozen wolves wander into Colorado the next few years that is bad for hunters and if they introduce 4 to 6 packs that reproduce quickly and no management will be allowed ( due to lawsuits) that will benefit hunters in Colorado.

Makes perfect sense to me

 

[Empty Quiver]

So long as your Fish and Game dept. asserts that, just keep shooting all the "big coyotes" you can find...

Shoot, shovel, shut up.

 

[slick]

Buzzh would never mislead you regarding wolves . Colorado, Utah Arizona , New Mexico please welcome Canadian grey wolves




Someone else who lives in an urban area with no wolves appears to hate those horrible farmers. I’ve noticed on sportsmen’s board a lot of animosity and blind ignorant hate of farmers and ranchers from those who live in urban areas. Most of this blind hate appears to be politically motivated.

The wolves have changed elk , deer moose behaviors and have pushed pushed a significant number of elk out of the back country down into low land farming areas onto open pasture areas. The elk stay there year round now where in the past they just wintered there and eat farmers’ crops, orchards and knock down fencing etc

The wolves follow and attack farmers’ livestock.

Urban

Haha you’re so wrong is comical. There was absolutely nothing negative said about landowners. I merely asked IF he was a livestock producer. Some of my best memories and friends are with livestock producers in Montana, the Dakotas, and Wyoming. I don’t think living in a town of 70 people is urban, although that is more than I’d like. Don’t even know why I’m defending myself to you.

I understand exactly what elk do in the winter. Thanks for the biology lesson Okhot.

 

[Topo_trekker]

The problem with the Yellowstone studies is that Elk populations were unnaturally high because of the lack of formidable predators and no hunting. They were literally destroying habitat for other species. To use that as evidence for other areas where carrying capacities are already controlled by hunting doesn’t really work. It was basically a zoo.

The outcome would be completely different when you give the animals time to adjust and learn about wolves slowly than just
re-introduce and be slaughtered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kootenay Hunter]

Soooo, what did elk do 200 years ago when there were wolves and grizzlies, etc. completely unmanaged?

I don't think anyone is disputing the difference in ungulate behavior with or without wolves, that's just common sense that things are different.

Unfortunately, the wildlife balance is out of whack and always will be, and has to be effectively and actively management on ALL fronts, wolves, elk, etc.

It wouldn't make sense that the wolves would kill all their prey species off and then effectively die off themselves. If anyone has a North American example of that predator/prey relationship example in an unconstrained system, please post! Sure they'll lower numbers, but predator/prey cycles are natural.

 

[ahlgringo]

Soooo, what did elk do 200 years ago when there were wolves and grizzlies, etc. completely unmanaged?

I don't think anyone is disputing the difference in ungulate behavior with or without wolves, that's just common sense that things are different.

Unfortunately, the wildlife balance is out of whack and always will be, and has to be effectively and actively management on ALL fronts, wolves, elk, etc.

It wouldn't make sense that the wolves would kill all their prey species off and then effectively die off themselves. If anyone has a North American example of that predator/prey relationship example in an unconstrained system, please post! Sure they'll lower numbers, but predator/prey cycles are natural.

Totally agree- IF you take human population explosion/development out of the equation, which we are long gone from.

So yes- predator/prey cycles are natural- they will be anything but that in Colorado. Prey will simply switch from wild ungulate to domestic.

I sure am pumped to potentially pay for all this, arent you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[slick]

Topo, Kootenay, and Gringo are all liberal, pro-wolf, landowner hating, decoy sportsman that live in an urban setting and don’t know anything. *sarcasm*

Some on this site presume that if you aren’t for poaching (SSS crowd) or that if you don’t directly state “I HATE WOLVES”- then you’re pro wolf. It’s absurd.

Just so it’s clear. I think wolves will naturally (slowly) move into suitable habitat in Colorado over time and ideally Colorado’s state agency has time to adopt a management strategy that will allow them to effectively manage them as another species on the landscape.

There’s nothing more or less special to me about wolves.

July ‘19 Resolution: Don’t get sucked into Woof threads.