An un-planned Experiment

sabotloader · Jan 22, 2015

Today, well yesterday I ran to the farm to do some shooting getting ready to do some varmint hunting (wolves and coyotes)...

Part of the trip was testing something I think I know and probably most of the rest of you already know...

This picture shows 3 W-209 primers that I have carried around in my pocket all hunting season. Most likely all them have been in the rifle for a hunting trip, then extracted, ejected, and stuffed back into my pocket. Well after hunting season I did not somehow get them out of my pocket - so after washing my hunting gear I found the three primers laying in the bottom of the washer. I picked them out and placed them on my hunting bench - I wanted to try them on one my trips to the farm or the rock pit. A few weeks later I loaded up to go to the rock pit remembered these primers for testing. But when I to the rock pit - to many people so I put off the shoot. And once again left them in my pants pocket and once again they got washed and discovered by Terry. When she handed them to me again.

Well, finally yesterday at the farm I got them out of my pocket and decided to test them. Were there really as water proof as I and most of us think???

Yep! - now I know for sure....

Shrek · Jan 23, 2015

That's good to know for an emergency but for the price of primers I'll stick to new ones .

rayporter · Jan 23, 2015

when i got my first ML adapted to take shot gun primers i did a similar test. then once i was invited to deer hunt with a fellow and after a week of rain everyone was loading up to leave and drinking coffee. as each guy fired his weapon i dropped my primer in my coffee while they watched. when i finished drinking the coffee i put the primer on asked if there were any bets. i got no takers[ and it fired ]

sabotloader · Jan 23, 2015

rayporter said:
when i got my first ML adapted to take shot gun primers i did a similar test. then once i was invited to deer hunt with a fellow and after a week of rain everyone was loading up to leave and drinking coffee. as each guy fired his weapon i dropped my primer in my coffee while they watched. when i finished drinking the coffee i put the primer on asked if there were any bets. i got no takers[ and it fired ]

Now that is good to know!

dotman · Jan 23, 2015

Yeah the more of these experiments you hear or read about definitely make you fell a little better if all your primers get soaked miles out there.

I think Shrek missed the point as last I knew there were no sporting good stores out in the wilderness.

rayporter · Jan 23, 2015

perhaps shrek did fully understand.

ignition is a fickle thing in accuracy-very fickle. in hunting all you care about is that it goes boom.

you would be shocked to hear of the ignition woes of a benchrest shooter, on a full blown custom rig, no less. firing pins must be a certain wt and and fall an exact distance and flash holes and on and on. all for a few tenths of a thou in group. shrek knows.

dotman · Jan 23, 2015

Yes I agree issues can happen but to test your equipment especially primers is a good test as you can't always keep them dry or run to the store.

Shrek · Jan 23, 2015

I understood perfectly.

orionsbrother · Jan 24, 2015

Sorry for heading off on a tangent, but I saw this, "when i got my first ML adapted to take shot gun primers..." from rayporter.

What adaptation is needed to use shotgun primers? Do you need a different breech plug with a different sized flash channel when using Blackhorn 209 which recommends regular shotgun primers instead of muzzleloader primers?

rayporter · Jan 24, 2015

there have been several excursions into modified ignition. the first one was no more than a cap over the primer. you replaced the nipple with the combination nipple that held a shotgun primer and the cap covered the primer. on the cap was a raised bump that hit the primer. a primer was inserted and the cap screwed on over the primer. crude but it worked. i am reaching way back, but i think mmp made it.

another was rifle primers in pistol case. a special breech plug was needed for this. a version may still be made.

now days you can get a 45-70 barrel threaded and have a breech plug installed and it will shoot modern smokeless powder, like 4198.

now i just use a TC and blackhorn. it is just sooooo easy. call me lazy now.

i bet sabotloader can help you more on where and how to get that info. i would hate to steer you wrong.

sabotloader · Jan 24, 2015

What adaptation is needed to use shotgun primers? Do you need a different breech plug with a different sized flash channel when using Blackhorn 209 which recommends regular shotgun primers instead of muzzleloader primers?

Which rifle might you want to convert? but yes, it normally takes a different breech plug and you will need a hammer or firing pin that can shoot primers versus percussion caps.

I believe if you want to shoot BH you do need a more modern BP and a closed ignition system

Shrek · Jan 24, 2015

Orionsbrother , if I understand what you're asking the standard 209 breech plugs work with all 209 primers. Most all modern front loaders can be had with both #11 caps plugs or 209 plugs. The best ones you can get with either flat base plugs for pellets or cupped base plugs for loose powder. I sold my last TC Encore but I'll buy another one soon. With a spring kit and a little stone work I can have a fantastic trigger and they are super easy to clean. Lots of options for rifle barrels to make it a backup rifle for me. Some people use them as a system but I like my bolt actions too much for that.

orionsbrother · Jan 24, 2015

I recently started into muzzleloading with a buddy of mine. I purchased a CVA Optima V2. My friend bought a TC. We are planning on trying different combinations of pellets and bullets and powder and bullets to determine what is the best accuracy/value/simplicity of loading and cleaning. We are splitting the cost of the various components.

Because we live in the Chicago area, it's difficult, expensive and time consuming to shoot. We shoot at his place in WI. I have about three weeks until I can hopefully get out of work and get up there.

Blackhorn 209 had been mentioned as requiring less cleaning for more shooting. I looked at their website and it mentions that shotgun primers need to be used instead of Tripple Seven 209 Muzzleloader primers. I have not yet purchased any Blackhorn 209 or shotgun primers.

I saw the above post and was wondering if the shotgun primers require a different breech plug with a different flash channel. From the later posts, I assume that the adaptation was from a muzzleloader that used caps originally to using primers?

My work schedule is brutal. I'm researching this stuff, as I can, in between. I appreciate being able to tap into your experience.

Shrek · Jan 24, 2015

The 209 breech plugs are the same but the primer heat and chemical makeup are different within the 777 209 primers and standard 209 primers. I'd just use the standard 209 shotgun primers for all of them as I never noticed any difference when I switche'd to the 777 209 primers from standard shotgun 209 primers. I bought my first bottle of Blackhorn 209 and after shooting it just a couple times I gave away four or five boxes of 777 pellets because I knew there was no way I'd ever shoot 777 again and 777 was a big improvement over Pyrodex.

Shrek · Jan 24, 2015

Another thing that improved my muzzleloader experience was using JB's bore paste on the barrel. I finish cleaning with a few passes of JB on tight patches and it really cleaned out the plastic sabot fouling and polished the bore to a shine. It loaded and cleaned easier after I started doing it. I don't recommend using JB's often on a custom high power rifle barrel but a factory muzzleloader barrel I do.

orionsbrother · Jan 24, 2015

I appreciate the tips.

ChrisS · Jan 24, 2015

"ignition is a fickle thing in accuracy-very fickle. in hunting all you care about is that it goes boom"

I'm convinced that there is no louder sound in the woods than when you pull the trigger and hear, CLICK, instead of the boom you were expecting.

Travis Bertrand · Jan 24, 2015

Orion, a 209 primer is a 209 primer. What I mean is it doesn't matter muzzleloader 209 or shotshell 209. You need to try them all.

"Muzzleloader" 209s are SUPPOSED to be hotter which is not actually they case. There are several shotshell primers that are hotter than a 777 209 primer.
The point is, much like center fire load development, you need to test them all to find the perfect load. It takes some work for sure but well worth it. With that said, people including myself have found the fiochi shotshell primer to be preferred with bh209. That is what works for my knight but might not work with your cva. Trial and error my friend.

If you want to steepen your learning curve, click on sabotloaders profile and read every post he has made here! They guy is amazing and I'm sure if you pm him (or me) your answers you can't find will be answered. The other thing is order a dvd from MAXMUZZLELOADER.COM. best muzzleloader investment I've made.

Travis Bertrand · Jan 24, 2015

Hey mike. Thanks for posting this. You probably could have saved me a few dollars if you would have done this a few years ago.

DE_Shooter · Jan 24, 2015

orionsbrother said:
I recently started into muzzleloading with a buddy of mine. I purchased a CVA Optima V2.

Save yourself some time.You will need a BH 209 breech plug you will need a magnum primer (209M or 209-A) I have good results with 250gr Barnes Expander-MZ in a black ribbed sabot sitting on 100gr by volume of Blackhorn, with Federal 209-A primer.

I also like the new Federal Premium Trophy Copper Bullets with the BH

An un-planned Experiment

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