Anybody check the speed on their stickbows?

[Wrench]

I have labradar. I also came up with a slick setup that uses an bracket from a dish tv that allows me to hang my optical chrony over the impact spot. I found that 30 yards scrubbed about 15fps iirc for both rigs. This is with the arrows listed above and trad vanes.

 

[SliverShooter]

A bows performance is dependent on the design, your form, release, arrow tuning, arrow weight, and the final tillering (and several othe things).
My hunting Selfbows:
Pigger, 58# @ 28-1/2” with a 630 grain wood arrow 168 fps
Hooligan, 58# a 28-1/2” with 630 grain arrows 179 fps average of six arrows (high of 182)

I attribute the difference to Hooligan having recurved tips, Pigger has straight limbs.

My selfbows do not lose much performance when compared to a glass bow with the same weight and arrows. However, they are more “temperamental”, needing consistent form and a clean release.

 

[DEEF]

Definitely some cool stuff! Doubt I'll ever get one unless the Mega Millions comes through tonight! Just a few years ago I would of worked a couple extra OT shifts to pay for one, but now it's just hard to get motivated that much, lol!

If you want to meet me on the mountain near crested butte this year, I'll bring the radar and we can log some arrow data. I'll have a couple of days to get acclimated to alltitude and will be happy to shoot with you.

 

[oldgoat]

If you want to meet me on the mountain near crested butte this year, I'll bring the radar and we can log some arrow data. I'll have a couple of days to get acclimated to alltitude and will be happy to shoot with you.

I certainly appreciate the offer, chances are I'm probably working and if not, I'll hopefully be hunting. I'm pretty dialed in, I just like the tech of it, thanks though! I'm thinking I might try to talk my archery club into one maybe though.

 

[Beendare]

I will dig out the chrono when I get my Borders…and check them the Nikas and the Selenghas.

I suppose if you only shoot 15-20y speed doesn’t matter.

Speed makes me more accurate at all ranges….its total hogwash to claim a slower bow is more accurate.

 

[DEEF]

Speed makes me more accurate at all ranges….its total hogwash to claim a slower bow is more accurate.

I don't believe anyone is making that claim. Perhaps you're associating speed with marketing propoganda and want to creat a new post? I don't recall anyone even bringing the skill of accurate shooting into this post topic; nonetheless, I don't disagree with your statement.

 

[GLB]

Wow, I started this Thread over 5 years ago. The point I was making then was that my bows were very effective as a hunting tool before I knew anything about how fast my arrows were going.
I knew that my tune was as best I could get it, I knew the flight of my arrows from 10 to 30 yards and worked hard at putting the arrow in the right place.

 

[bisblue]

A bows performance is dependent on the design, your form, release, arrow tuning, arrow weight, and the final tillering (and several othe things).
My hunting Selfbows:
Pigger, 58# @ 28-1/2” with a 630 grain wood arrow 168 fps
Hooligan, 58# a 28-1/2” with 630 grain arrows 179 fps average of six arrows (high of 182)

I attribute the difference to Hooligan having recurved tips, Pigger has straight limbs.

My selfbows do not lose much performance when compared to a glass bow with the same weight and arrows. However, they are more “temperamental”, needing consistent form and a clean release.

Do you notice any decline in the self bow shooting it repeatedly?

My takedown reflex deflex a friend made is #49@30. Shooting a 544 grain arrow is 162 fps. Toelke 64" whip, same weight and arrow is about 4 fps faster, but it has carbon in the limbs.
Belly mounted recurve with 575 grain arrow 172 ish. Warf bow with uukha limbs and 575 adds another 6 fps or so.
Longbow still feels the best in my hand great point on, it's a better elk hunting bow for my aim and brain.

 

[GLB]

Longbow still feels the best in my hand great point on, it's a better elk hunting bow for my aim and brain.

That is the key, we as individuals need to figure out what’s best for our “aim and brain”

 

[bisblue]

That is the key, we as individuals need to figure out what’s best for our “aim and brain”

I actually bought a Toelke to compare this one to a really nice reflex deflex bow. It shoots amazing and a touch faster but I'm gonna re- home it and keep with my buddies bow.

 

[Beendare]

I don't believe anyone is making that claim. Perhaps you're associating speed with marketing propoganda and want to creat a new post? I don't recall anyone even bringing the skill of accurate shooting into this post topic; nonetheless, I don't disagree with your statement.

I am just relaying my experience in a thread on arrow speed.

I see from your post that you are an Ashby fan.

I did the prevailing trad bow wisdom of 600g + arrow for a few years.

Then I went down to 550 and now at 425. My accuracy has skyrocketed. If speed was all I am concerned with I would shoot the 391g arrow that tunes in my bow- I’m not.

Shoot what works for you but I’m over trad guys telling me I have to shoot a big slow heavy arrow- its simply not true.

I shot against the Montana state champ at the trad nationals one year and asked him what arrow he hunts with- (low 400g) he said, “Accuracy is the most important factor, right?”

.

 

[GLB]

Accuracy is a must, without that nothing else matters. I strive to get a 25 yard point on because my gapstintive brain works best in that arrow trajectory range. With that PO my arrow is on hair from 20-30 yards of a deer size target. 20 yards at bottom of the chest. 25 yards dead center, and 30 yards top of back.
As it turns out my arrows are in the 550-600ish total weight for my 50ish lbs longbows. I tried some time ago going faster with lighter weight arrows and it was great hitting the target with a point on of 40 yards but 25 and in my brain couldn’t handle that large of a gap up close. So I went back to what always worked for me.
So yep accuracy is the most important factor.

 

[DEEF]

Shoot what works for you but I’m over trad guys telling me I have to shoot a big slow heavy arrow- its simply not true.

I'd like to preface that I don't perceive anyone here telling anyone to shoot a "big slow heavy arrow" or as mentioned above anyone claiming that "speed improves accuracy". Nonetheless, I hear you man and I'm happy to acknowledge your statements and 'am thankful for your experiential arrow building information.

I absolutely agree that one is best served by what "works" for them and some guys love telling others what to do–especially master manipulators. I'm glad you did your own arrow building process and honed in your own system–that's the Ashby Bow Hunting Foundations advocacy.

Quantifying variables like "slow", "heavy", "momentum" is best understood in a given context. I believe a context that provides an expansive baseline for assessing and selecting effective and efficient inputs that quantify probable variablitlies is Dr. Ashby's 12 factors of terminal arrow performance.

Yeah I'm a huge Dr. Ashby lover–his work is exceptional! The man gathered as many conditions and circumstances as he possibly could, while putting a boundary around monetary and confirmation bias, and meticulously measured the conditions he could within their respective context.

He then assessed for correlations and made his conclusions based on high correlations and observed outcomes. He then organized all that work into "pure principles" or "first principles", so his arrow building and shooting system would have a baseline that has a Higher Probability for Repeating a Similar Outcome; E.g, conditions xyz with circumstance abc = "terminal arrow performance". His work clarified detailed factors that are applicable to a unique context of shooting a sharp stick at an armored animal in motion.

Then he Generously and Freely gave his meticulous knowledge to fellow bowhunters asking only that they consider the principles which he found better align with the efficient and effective harvest of a in motion armored animal.
Consequently, his generous work enabled the "legal use" of archery hunting in Africa.

His work has continued and is evolving with the use of more conditions and more quantifying data to support a universal goal of effectively and efficiently harvesting animals. The ability to quantify speed is an important variable when considering momentum; which is apparently an important variable of the physics involved with material interactions(penetration, bleeding, clotting, bonebreaking).

My intent for communicating this is to make the distinction between what his advocacy and work focuses on versus the marketing context which informs some folks who want master manipulators to tell them what to do and which narrow variables will achieve their harvest objective. I don't perceive our posting group here correlates with those labels, but the "industry" certainly pays attention to where their "target group" is and what the group is thinking about.

The accuracy topic is funny. Accuracy is obviously applicable to Dr. Ashby’s second principle of terminal arrow performance: Perfect Arrow Flight.

And it's funny how speed and arrow lightness have been the main variables which have influenced the past culture and their association with "accuracy". We're finally seeing a shift to consider the holistic context which Dr. Ashby wisely advocates in the midst of a marketing culture that has lost ground and many animals.

When guys who have thoughtfully considered the physics regarding material interactions, what the terminal arrow performance principles are, and how they have applied those principles to their unique context, then we will all benefit from assessing our unique quantified data and observed outcomes. I'd also sure love to stop seeing anymore elk hunting videos of an arrow bouncing off the side of an a elk.

 

[Beendare]

Accuracy is a must, without that nothing else matters. ....

Yeah, exactly.

I shoot gap-stinctive also. I like having the reference point of a gap- but then I like focusing on the spot.....a belt and suspenders approach.

My gap at 20y with my 600g plus arrows was 1 1/4"....my gap with the setup I'm shooting now at 20y is 1/2".

The instinctive guys will argue...but IME...having that arrow tip closer to the intended spot is a big advantage. My consistent accuracy is much better because of it....and that boils down to arrow speed.

Deet, Ashby's stuff has evolved over the decades to some decent advice now.

I have seen him shoot [OMG]...and I saw his cockamamy theories on EFOC get blown out of the water decades ago. [go watch his soda straw and rubber band video on YouTube at the P&Y convention]- thats snake oil. I'm not a fan.

 

[DEEF]

I have seen him shoot [OMG]...and I saw his cockamamy theories on EFOC get blown out of the water decades ago. [go watch his soda straw and rubber band video on YouTube at the P&Y convention]- thats snake oil. I'm not a fan.

Theories? Please define "cockamamy theories on EFOC". I looked for your P&Y convention mention and watched a few videos, but do not see your claim of snake oil. Perhaps share the particular video supporting your conclusion?

Furthermore, he carefully clarified his communication regarding what folks describe as "heavy arrow". And I have heard him communicate his willingness to stand corrected when his expectations didn't correlate with the testing measurements/observations. This type of behavior supports my perception of his sound methodology and makes me respect him much more.

He is very thoughtful to consider the particular context of the FOC factor and how he organizes/prioritizes the factors when applicable to particular circumstances and the variety of variables one chooses to build their system with. What I'd love for others to be aware of is their particular thought organization of arrow build principles and the priority cascade they place on their particular objectives.

In regard to the degree of FOC, he clarifies his reasoning by writing out, clear as day, terminal arrow performance number 12, he states,

Arrow-mass above the Heavy Bone Threshold is placed this low because it has little significance on shots impacting only soft tissues. On a heavy bone impact this factor will jump to very near the head of all factors; excepting only structural Integrity and, perhaps, quality of arrow flight (See 2005 Update, Part 6). The degree of arrow FOC shows no effect on the Heavy Bone Threshold, but does show a significant penetration increase once the bone is breached (See 2008 Update, Parts 1 through 6)...............................................................................................-–>This is, in no way, saying that you can only hunt with an arrow/broadhead combination that is 650 grains or heavier. Nor is it saying that you can never breach heavy bone with an arrow below 650 grains. This is strictly saying that when heavy bone is encountered your chances of breaching the bone and harvesting that animal are significantly increased if your arrow’s weight is around 650 grains, or higher.

As Dr. Ashby reasons in this above section, he clarifies that the factor considered is not about if you hit bone it's the extent of the bone you do hit. The ranch fairy generously shares his pig necropsy videos and shows similarly what Dr. Ashby observed in the hundreds of recorded necropsies he conducted.

Nonetheless, I am interested to hear your "cockamamy theory" reasoning to better comprehend your insights that we may better build and have confidence in our particular arrow lethality system.

 

[Gun]

Mines about two Mississippi's at 30 yards.....

LOL
I don't worry about speed. Can't remember last time I shot thru a chrono
Quiet kills.

 

[Wrench]

Here's a pic of how used the former dish mount to hold my optical chronograph.

 

[Beendare]

Heres the vid Wrench….


Ashby “Proved” his massive FOC claims with weighted soda straws and rubber bands. In his initial claim ( about 25 years ago) he stated very high FOC arrow “ flew further” than avg FOC arrows. He was literally laughed at by the physics guys at the time as that defies the laws of physics.

Then know; The testing he did was anything but scientific. He is a very mediocre longbow shooter ( I’ve seen him shoot decades ago) and lets just put it nicely, his margin of error is huge. Many of his tests claim a low single digit advantage- well within the margin of error for any shooter of that caliber.

Now, Ashby’s recommendations have changed over the decades to be much better- and he now has come closer to the mainstream good advice. He does still cling to his high FOC and Single bevel theories though.

 

[DEEF]

I actually perceive Dr. Ashby's work as leading archery hunting knowledge for the past thirty years. At the beginnings of Ashby's work, I don't see how Ashby was or is aligning with the "mainstream knowledge", but I don't have exhaustive historical archery hunting knowledge. His methodology and reasoning is sound and undoubtedly influencing more so than the past.

Yeah, heaven forbid someone technically minded who is conducting controlled tests to observe multiple variable interactions changes their perceptions after a thoughtful consideration of the testing result—So un-natural and not scientific. It's not difficult to look at numbers on a spreadsheet and extrapolate to a new conclusion; but Ashby wasn't behaving exclusively this way. That's why he took his data observations and applied them in the field. He kept on pursuing discovery and refinement of his perceptions; a behavior I strongly encourage you to consider. I do it and it's great fun!

I better comprehend your "cockamamy theory" reasoning now and proofs for all your claims and conclusions. Your method of reasoning is clear to me. I'll keep on utilizing critical thinking about non-scientific reasoning from a "mediocre shooter" that has at least one white rino harvest with a longbow and harvested hundreds of animals in his hunting career pre and post working as a professional hunter.

I don't know what "physics guys were laughing at his work at the time", but I'm fairly certain you aren't talking to the physicists Dr. Ashby was and still is. Here's a FOC physics experiment you can try:

Happy Hunting

 

[GLB]

I actually perceive Dr. Ashby's work as leading archery hunting knowledge for the past thirty years. At the beginnings of Ashby's work, I don't see how Ashby was or is aligning with the "mainstream knowledge", but I don't have exhaustive historical archery hunting knowledge. His methodology and reasoning is sound and undoubtedly influencing more so than the past.

Yeah, heaven forbid someone technically minded who is conducting controlled tests to observe multiple variable interactions changes their perceptions after a thoughtful consideration of the testing result—So un-natural and not scientific. It's not difficult to look at numbers on a spreadsheet and extrapolate to a new conclusion; but Ashby wasn't behaving exclusively this way. That's why he took his data observations and applied them in the field. He kept on pursuing discovery and refinement of his perceptions; a behavior I strongly encourage you to consider. I do it and it's great fun!

I better comprehend your "cockamamy theory" reasoning now and proofs for all your claims and conclusions. Your method of reasoning is clear to me. I'll keep on utilizing critical thinking about non-scientific reasoning from a "mediocre shooter" that has at least one white rino harvest with a longbow and harvested hundreds of animals in his hunting career pre and post working as a professional hunter.

I don't know what "physics guys were laughing at his work at the time", but I'm fairly certain you aren't talking to the physicists Dr. Ashby was and still is. Here's a FOC physics experiment you can try:

Happy Hunting

That straw demo by Ed Schlief is very interesting. I had a chance to visit with Ed some years ago and I remember him talking about having a weight forward arrow known as FOC Today. He was experimenting with tapered shafts for that purpose.
I like a little FOC on my arrows and I’m usually in the 22-25% and I like the benefits I get from that.