Are Berger failures real?

[Dioni A]

So many animals shot "very good" and not recovered. I'm still calling shennanigans. POP the lungs = dead animal Pencil hole or gaping wound channel.

I'm giong to have to strongly disagree with you. In broken country with much of any cover your chances of recovering an animal with a pencil hole wound through the lungs are poor at best. Yeah, it will die. But it's wasted and a sad loss. You can believe what you want about my shooting, I don't care. I came here with concrete evidence that berger bullets fail. If it was 1 shot I'd write it off. but 4 or call it 3 if you want to forget the un recovered animal is a note worthy trend.

 

[Dioni A]

True!

And shooing big for caliber bullets is the Key IMO.

This 300 grain SMK hit a moose at 1775 yard and traveled 40 inches though the moose taking out the top of the heart. The moose never took a step.


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Had the heart not been hit. Do you think it would have still been effective in killing that moose?

 

[Laelkhunter]

I'm giong to have to strongly disagree with you. In broken country with much of any cover your chances of recovering an animal with a pencil hole wound through the lungs are poor at best. Yeah, it will die. But it's wasted and a sad loss. You can believe what you want about my shooting, I don't care. I came here with concrete evidence that berger bullets fail. If it was 1 shot I'd write it off. but 4 or call it 3 if you want to forget the un recovered animal is a note worthy trend.

I agree dioni, it seems if they are hit high in the lungs, they will bleed a lot less than a low lung hit. A high lung hit would result in less of a blood trail to follow as the body cavity tends to fill with blood before any oozes out of the wound to fall to the ground.

 

[Broz]

My experience with caliber sized double lung hits (all from my Barnes days) was the blood comes from the nose and mouth first. It takes a while for the chest cavity to fill up to the entrance or exit and start leaking. Some never do. But they all coughed up some blood at some point. One even bedded and leaked out some while in a bedded position, but again more from the mouth. Caliber sized holes through lungs have not been a good way to anchor an elk for me. This is why I prefer a fragmenting bullet, mass destruction of lungs, heart or major arteries end the chase.

From what I have been able to compile over the years from credible Berger non expansion experiences, the most common denominator was small calibers or light for caliber bullets. I feel maybe the reason I have not had an issue is partially due to the fact I use big bullets. From the too much expansion club and claimed good hits and only flesh wounds, these common denominators stand out. Small calibers, high velocity impacts, fast twist barrels and 3 or 4 grove barrels. The perfect storm.

FWIW
Jeff

 

[HellsCanyon]

My experience with caliber sized double lung hits (all from my Barnes days) was the blood comes from the nose and mouth first. It takes a while for the chest cavity to fill up to the entrance or exit and start leaking. Some never do. But they all coughed up some blood at some point. One even bedded and leaked out some while in a bedded position, but again more from the mouth. Caliber sized holes through lungs have not been a good way to anchor an elk for me. This is why I prefer a fragmenting bullet, mass destruction of lungs, heart or major arteries end the chase.

From what I have been able to compile over the years from credible Berger non expansion experiences, the most common denominator was small calibers or light for caliber bullets. I feel maybe the reason I have not had an issue is partially due to the fact I use big bullets. From the too much expansion club and claimed good hits and only flesh wounds, these common denominators stand out. Small calibers, high velocity impacts, fast twist barrels and 3 or 4 grove barrels. The perfect storm.

FWIW
Jeff

I’ve had quite a few kills with a 140 VLD 7mm berger at 3200fps 8” twist barrel the last 3 years, from 100-900 yards and they’ve still worked perfectly. Just throwing this out there that they do work even at what I would consider fast speeds and tight for bullet weight twists.

The first bullet I posted a picture of is a 168 vld at sub 3000 fps out of a 7mm mag. Not terribly light for a 7mm not high impact velocity with the distance mentioned. Factory twist barrel too.

Mike


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[Broz]

I’ve had quite a few kills with a 140 VLD 7mm berger at 3200fps 8” twist barrel the last 3 years, from 100-900 yards and they’ve still worked perfectly. Just throwing this out there that they do work even at what I would consider fast speeds and tight for bullet weight twists.

The first bullet I posted a picture of is a 168 vld at sub 3000 fps out of a 7mm mag. Not terribly light for a 7mm not high impact velocity with the distance mentioned. Factory twist barrel too.

Mike


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Mike you may have not read this part. "From the too much expansion club and claimed good hits and only flesh wounds, these common denominators stand out. Small calibers, high velocity impacts, fast twist barrels and 3 or 4 grove barrels. The perfect storm."

That part of the post was all about too much expansion. A lot of the smaller caliber 6.5's and 6mm's were running 7 twists and yes all well above 3000 and I feel the deeper wider inscription to the jackets from 3 and 4 groves are a big part of the equation

 

[HellsCanyon]

Mike you may have not read this part. "From the too much expansion club and claimed good hits and only flesh wounds, these common denominators stand out. Small calibers, high velocity impacts, fast twist barrels and 3 or 4 grove barrels. The perfect storm."

That part of the post was all about too much expansion. A lot of the smaller caliber 6.5's and 6mm's were running 7 twists and yes all well above 3000 and I feel the deeper wider inscription to the jackets from 3 and 4 groves are a big part of the equation

I must be misunderstanding you then. Seems most the problems/experiences in this thread are dealing with pencil-holes and failure to expand Berger’s. Is anyone claiming here that Berger’s “fail” by over expanding? Honest question

Mike


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[mtmuley]

I must be misunderstanding you then. Seems most the problems/experiences in this thread are dealing with pencil-holes and failure to expand Berger’s. Is anyone claiming here that Berger’s “fail” by over expanding? Honest question

Mike


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Yeah. I don't use them because of excessive meat damage. To be fair, the 190 VLD from a RUM is my only experience. As I have done more research, a heavier Berger pushed slower would probably work better. But, not enough better to move me from Accubonds. mtmuley

 

[Broz]

I must be misunderstanding you then. Seems most the problems/experiences in this thread are dealing with pencil-holes and failure to expand Berger’s. Is anyone claiming here that Berger’s “fail” by over expanding? Honest question

Mike


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Mike, no, not that I have seen in this thread , However the title of the thread is "are Berger failures real" I have read in other threads of instances of flesh wounds from bullets coming apart. In an effort to offer info I have gathered as I tested and gathered years of terminal performance data, I offered this info. It just might help someone and falls under the titles of the thread.

That said with 100's of big game kills with Berger bullets, I have always had caliber entrance holes, lots of expansion and large exits. Even the bear at 1702 yards had this for an exit with an impact velocity well below what Berger recommends. Here is the exit hole.

Actually the no expansion experiences blow my mind, as I stated before, if I were to complain, it would be from too much expansion. But again those instances were from high impact velocities and they still offered quick kills. Plus I know you cant have low impact velocity expansion without a lot of expansion at high impact velocities.

Jeff

 

[maninthemaze]

My "failure" was what I would call a lack of expansion. That's what I thought the majority of this thread was about. I haven't read anyone complaining that their bullets fragmented and should have stayed together. Most of the complaints were from guys, including me, who's bullets didn't do anything but put pencil holes in the game. I bought Berger bullets because I want the bullet to turn into shrapnel inside the animal. I don't want it to exit. I want all of its energy dumped into the chest cavity of the animal.

Even after the few failures I've had, I'm still gonna use Berger bullets, with the tips cleaned out of course.

Just my 2 cents and worth the price charged.

 

[Dioni A]

I think I need to offer that I always use heavy for caliber bullets when using any cup core fragmenting bullet. That is not making excuses for the bullets above that didn't open properly. It is evident for whatever reason this combo is not suitable. But I will say if that 30-06 was mine and has a 1 in 10 twist barrel I would have the 215 Berger in it in the blink of an eye. We even ran them in 308's with 12 twists above 4000' and they took elk with authority.

312, would you do a little test for me please? Run a fine wire in the hollow point and measure how far it is back to lead. I have my own redneck theories on why some expansion rates are faster than others. With the 215 it is .400" back to lead, the 7mm / 195's closer to .300" I would really like to know if these 30 cal 168's have a shallow nose area.

Also do you know the impact velocity of the bullet pictured?

Thanks

I just measured it and have .35 of depth to the core.

 

[Broz]

I just measured it and have .35 of depth to the core.

Thank you, I want to add this to my Data log. I really don't see a definite pattern, but if enough solid data is gathered, maybe some day we might.

 

[HellsCanyon]

Mike, no, not that I have seen in this thread , However the title of the thread is "are Berger failures real" I have read in other threads of instances of flesh wounds from bullets coming apart. In an effort to offer info I have gathered as I tested and gathered years of terminal performance data, I offered this info. It just might help someone and falls under the titles of the thread.

That said with 100's of big game kills with Berger bullets, I have always had caliber entrance holes, lots of expansion and large exits. Even the bear at 1702 yards had this for an exit with an impact velocity well below what Berger recommends. Here is the exit hole.

Actually the no expansion experiences blow my mind, as I stated before, if I were to complain, it would be from too much expansion. But again those instances were from high impact velocities and they still offered quick kills. Plus I know you cant have low impact velocity expansion without a lot of expansion at high impact velocities.

Jeff

Copy that I’m tracking you now! Thanks for clarifying.

Mike


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[odin0226]

Yup, lack of expansion is certainly the negative I've spoken of given my results this year using the 230 berger.

I will also say the 215 did an amazing job for my wife on a Wyoming elk a few years back. Impact velocity 2300 fps-ish, both lungs were complete jello with no exit hole. Bang , 2 step, flop

 

[HuntHarder]

So if you shoot an elk with a 6.5mm Barnes TSX and it expands to the size of a 375, would a 375 that doesn't expand kill the same? I am just confused on all these double lung shots where animals are not recovered. I have been either the shooter or accompanied many shooters on quite a few kills. I am yet to see an animal get double lunged and not recovered. I have seen single lunged animals go FOREVER, but pop both and they have never traveled more than 100 yards usually less. This includes archery and rifle both. Until I track a double lunged animal further, I will continue to believe that piss poor shooting provides piss poor results. Again I do not doubt non-expansion or too much expansion, I just firmly believe shot placement is a much larger problem.

 

[Broz]

So if you shoot an elk with a 6.5mm Barnes TSX and it expands to the size of a 375, would a 375 that doesn't expand kill the same? I am just confused on all these double lung shots where animals are not recovered. I have been either the shooter or accompanied many shooters on quite a few kills. I am yet to see an animal get double lunged and not recovered. I have seen single lunged animals go FOREVER, but pop both and they have never traveled more than 100 yards usually less. This includes archery and rifle both. Until I track a double lunged animal further, I will continue to believe that piss poor shooting provides piss poor results. Again I do not doubt non-expansion or too much expansion, I just firmly believe shot placement is a much larger problem.

I agree shot placement is King. But about 10 yrs ago I was shooting Barnes TSX's and so was someone I was hunting with. In one season we were dealt 2 bad deals. One where we recovered the bull 4.7 miles later right after dark. We were very lucky. Double lunged with a 7mm and 7mm holes in and out. The other we found a day later from birds on it where it crawled into brush. The later was a total loss. We didn't open it up, but the bullet holes in and out were representative of double lung placement. The second bull only traveled 1/2 to 3/4 mile, but was able to conceal himself to a point it took birds for us to locate him. That was the year I switched to cup core fragmenting bullets. So far all has been great since.

Jeff

 

[odin0226]

Elk are tough critters ; bump an elk that was shot (double lung) and see how far they go for yourself.... Dont reccomend it BTW.

 

[HuntHarder]

I agree shot placement is King. But about 10 yrs ago I was shooting Barnes TSX's and so was someone I was hunting with. In one season we were dealt 2 bad deals. One where we recovered the bull 4.7 miles later right after dark. We were very lucky. Double lunged with a 7mm and 7mm holes in and out. The other we found a day later from birds on it where it crawled into brush. The later was a total loss. We didn't open it up, but the bullet holes in and out were representative of double lung placement. The second bull only traveled 1/2 to 3/4 mile, but was able to conceal himself to a point it took birds for us to locate him. That was the year I switched to cup core fragmenting bullets. So far all has been great since.

Jeff

I value your opinion and maybe I have been lucky. I have never experienced this, so I guess it is just hard to fathom. This thread has been enlightening and maybe I should change my opinion on how far an animal can go on popped lungs. I hope I never do have this happen to me, but it sure would make it easier to accept a double lung shot as a non-recovered animal.

Bumping animals that are wounded is the worst. Just about everyone has done it and usually change their tracking habits thereafter. We have left many animals overnight because we were not sure of the shot and would rather take a chance on losing some meat vs. losing the animal. It is a tough call to make, but I always error on the side of caution.

 

[odin0226]

For sure on bumping; unfortunately the wolves moved and did the bumping for us. A catch 22 scenario

 

[HuntHarder]

Here in Az, we do not have to worry about wolves in most units, but as time goes on and the libtards get their way, it will soon be yet another piece of the puzzle. Having an animal eaten by predators is always a concern, but usually small in comparison. Adding Apex predators into the mix definitely make the decision that much more difficult.