Montana season change proposal

[ELKdeerMT]

Yes. They are down for a lot of reasons, terrible weather for mule deer IMO the biggest. Plus some of the good years may have been artificially high with conditions that we can’t reproduce again (logging/grazing practices, predator control)

It’s just foolish to think with swapping around season dates, buck tag allocations, NR quotas that you will get any meaningful change in the health or size of the deer herds. It’s been tried and failed. Over and over.

Removing doe tags might help a little, not hunting in November and you might have some bigger bucks on the landscape.

Give up opportunities to hunt and you won’t get them back. It’s not my state to decide, but look at all the states around you and ask yourself if it’s working there.

Where does it not work better than what Montana has going on? I look at any other state and their regulations/quotas change yearly. They have head and shoulder results compared to Montana. Look at Wyoming and how they cut tags significantly last year after the hard winter. I’d rather have a deer tag in Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho, Arizona, NM before I hunt my home state of Montana.

I hate losing opportunity if it doest make sense. At some point it makes sense. People with decades of experience in the field drafted this and know it’s time for a change. It’s not anecdotal, it’s hard evidence.

 

[willfrye027]

Where does it not work better than what Montana has going on? I look at any other state and their regulations/quotas change yearly. They have head and shoulder results compared to Montana. Look at Wyoming and how they cut tags significantly last year after the hard winter. I’d rather have a deer tag in Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho, Arizona, NM before I hunt my home state of Montana.

I hate losing opportunity if it doest make sense. At some point it makes sense. People with decades of experience in the field drafted this and know it’s time for a change. It’s not anecdotal, it’s hard evidence.

Where are the head and shoulder results? How would you measure this and separate it from better habitat? How much are you willing to limit tags/pressure? And how is decades in the field, anything other than anecdotal? I’d love to hear and see the hard evidence. These proposals are addressing social hunting issues, which is totally fine, but should not be construed as benefiting the herd/population.

 

[Pony Soldier]

Sorry but I wouldn't trust that bunch of clowns at Hunt Talk to draft the dating rules for a whorehouse.

 

[S.Clancy]

Yeah, I need to find that data I came across or heard. Of course any of these studies are going to be a snapshot in time, in a specific area, with a pretty small sample size compared to the whole population.

Pretty rough fawn recruitment across that data set..with my takeaway being even if you don’t hunt the forkies, a lot will die, and trying to save them from hunting does not make a large enough difference in my mind.

50% is pretty standard for fawn mortality, obviously it can be more or less, but I think that is a good average. I think MT says you need 30:100 fawns to does (or around there) spring count to maintain your population in the breaks habitats.

 

[ELKdeerMT]

Where are the head and shoulder results? How would you measure this and separate it from better habitat? How much are you willing to limit tags/pressure? And how is decades in the field, anything other than anecdotal? I’d love to hear and see the hard evidence. These proposals are addressing social hunting issues, which is totally fine, but should not be construed as benefiting the herd/population.

Buck to doe ratios, age class and structures of the herds. The general size of the heard. Lines on a map separate western Wyoming from Montana, habitat is not that different. October deer seasons and limited rut hunting are factors that contribute to the difference. Colorado has 5x the population of residents compared to MT. Why does the majority of units have the potential at a 200" deer?

 

[finner]

Where are the head and shoulder results? How would you measure this and separate it from better habitat? How much are you willing to limit tags/pressure? And how is decades in the field, anything other than anecdotal? I’d love to hear and see the hard evidence. These proposals are addressing social hunting issues, which is totally fine, but should not be construed as benefiting the herd/population.

Do you think buck:doe ratios are a worthwhile metric for herd health?

 

[Jason Snyder]

Sorry but I wouldn't trust that bunch of clowns at Hunt Talk to draft the dating rules for a whorehourse.

What a ridiculous and biased statement. Also, you spelled whorehouse wrong.

Just because your thoughts and ideologies don’t align with a forum does not mean the folks who did the work are clowns. Stereotypes are for weak minds. Do you need an echo chamber to feel safe?

I personally know several of them. One of them is probably more knowledgeable about mule deer than many professional biologists.

 

[ELKdeerMT]

Sorry but I wouldn't trust that bunch of clowns at Hunt Talk to draft the dating rules for a whorehourse.

Who would you trust from the prestigious Rockslide community? I'd put money that Robby or Founder from MM would be all about it if they lived in Montana.

That was just a dumb comment.

 

[NRA4LIFE]

I don't care about dates. If I were in charge, I'd get rid of all doe permits in the 700 units for 5 years or better. The hunting has really gone to hell there.

 

[cgasner1]

What a ridiculous and biased statement. Also, you spelled whorehouse wrong.

Just because your thoughts and ideologies don’t align with a forum does not mean the folks who did the work are clowns. Stereotypes are for weak minds. Do you need an echo chamber to feel safe?

I personally know several of them. One of them is probably more knowledgeable about mule deer than many professional biologists.

I’ve kinda come to the conclusion this is just like at work when you have to work with someone that yells. They do it because of not having an intelligent response. We may all be idiots but someone also posted this in the elk sub section in a hunting forum instead of about 3 other places that it could have been placed on here that would have been better.


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[Pony Soldier]

I watch what they post and what their controlling attitude is. I'm not a fan but you knew that. There are possible changes but I have no desire to be in Colorado or Wyoming. If you do - move.

 

[Grundy53]

Buck to doe ratios, age class and structures of the herds. The general size of the heard. Lines on a map separate western Wyoming from Montana, habitat is not that different. October deer seasons and limited rut hunting are factors that contribute to the difference. Colorado has 5x the population of residents compared to MT. Why does the majority of units have the potential at a 200" deer?

Western Wyoming lost 60% of their deer herd from the Wyoming range. In the winter of 22/23. 20,000 something deer dead in 1 winter. October seasons didn't save them. Hard winters and drought, plus habitat, are by far the biggest influence on deer numbers. Colorado has better genetics.

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[ELKdeerMT]

Western Wyoming lost 60% of their deer herd from the Wyoming range. In the winter of 22/23. 20,000 something deer dead in 1 winter. October seasons didn't save them. Hard winters and drought, plus habitat, are by far the biggest influence on deer numbers. Colorado has better genetics.

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Okay but they reduced available tags to give the deer a chance. I would have drawn h last year if they hadn’t done that. I’m not crying about it. I’m happy they prioritize the resource. I’m not sure what point you’re making. I agree with all you said except the October season having nothing to do with it. Wyomin would be worse off my a lot if they let you blast deer through the rut.

 

[Firestone]

I went to one of the meetings prior to the selection of the Mule Deer citizens advisory council. They were soliciting alternatives and potential changes that mule deer hunters had to offer.

One thing I brought up at that meeting was the fact that MTFWP refuses to acknowledge the gigantic difference between the Western 1/3 of the state and the Central and Eastern parts of the state. In Western MT, there are still bucks that die of old age. There are several 100,000ac of prime habitat that has come from fires in the last +/-15yrs. In my region, predation (and specifically Mtn lion predation) needs addressed. Hunting pressure in W MT does not even remotely compare to the rest of the state. They can’t have a one size fits all solution. Saco and T Falls can’t be any more

This is 100% correct. I hate that western Montana is being lumped into the bullshit that goes on in Eastern Montana. The herd dynamics and hunting pressure are polar opposites of each other and should not be managed the same. There are already plenty of bucks dieing from old age in Region one, hunting them in October will make it damn near impossible in some parts.

 

[Grundy53]

Okay but they reduced available tags to give the deer a chance. I would have drawn h last year if they hadn’t done that. I’m not crying about it. I’m happy they prioritize the resource. I’m not sure what point you’re making. I agree with all you said except the October season having nothing to do with it. Wyomin would be worse off my a lot if they let you blast deer through the rut.

Would they be worse off? Or would a lot of those dead deer be in freezers instead of rotting on the winter range? Dead is dead. Maybe more animals would have survived the winter if there were fewer bucks on the winter range eating the available forage. My point was that Mother Nature is the main driver for herd size. I've been listening to Robby's podcasts that he's been doing with Biologists from Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado, and Utah. They make it seem as if buck harvest has very little to do with herd size and health. If anything, too many bucks can be a detriment (they eat the forage does need). It's funny because most of the pro hunting restriction arguments I've seen in this thread were contradictory to what all those Biologists said.

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[RutandDie]

I would like @robby denning to do his next podcast on the benefits mule deer see from a state wide general rut hunt. Maybe there is a reason he has never had a podcast with any Montana biologists. Why is no other state doing a general rut hunt? If buck harvest doesn’t matter why aren’t states lining up for a general rut hunts.

 

[Grundy53]

I would like @robby denning to do his next podcast on the benefits mule deer see from a state wide general rut hunt. Maybe there is a reason he has never had a podcast with any Montana biologists. Why is no other state doing a general rut hunt? If buck harvest doesn’t matter why aren’t states lining up for a general rut hunts.

Because they have to deal with the public who are emotional, believe anecdotal theories, and can never agree on anything.
Plus, like has been said earlier. Once something is gone, you aren't getting it back. Their later hunting dates are gone.

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[Grundy53]

I'm not saying nothing needs to change. I would just suggest a measured approach. Maybe start small. Mandatory reporting. Shut down mule deer B tags. If that doesn't work, add something else. Maybe go with whatever the Biologists recommend?

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[NRA4LIFE]

I would like @robby denning to do his next podcast on the benefits mule deer see from a state wide general rut hunt. Maybe there is a reason he has never had a podcast with any Montana biologists. Why is no other state doing a general rut hunt? If buck harvest doesn’t matter why aren’t states lining up for a general rut hunts.

That could not work here in WA. We have 6-7 times the population of MT and probably 1/10th of the huntable land for mulies. The mule deer herd would be wiped clean.

 

[Grundy53]

I would like @robby denning to do his next podcast on the benefits mule deer see from a state wide general rut hunt. Maybe there is a reason he has never had a podcast with any Montana biologists. Why is no other state doing a general rut hunt? If buck harvest doesn’t matter why aren’t states lining up for a general rut hunts.

By the way. Great first post. Or is this just someone's burner account?

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