Montana season change proposal

[Scottf270]

Guys just remember, if you argue with a fool, you yourself become one.

 

[Grundy53]

I live in eastern Montana. There is a good reason these conversations are coming up and a good reason MTFWP put together a mule deer committee. Our hunting is a shell of what it was. You are showing your knowledge. Honestly the people opposing this proposal are either inexperienced or don’t care about the resource. You seem like the type that would be happy to shoot the last one. The proposal still allows ample opportunity. I could come up with a lot of other solutions that would limit opportunity. Maybe that is what you prefer.

Once again, I didn't say I was against changes. I would just like to see a more measured approach. You are wrong about me. I would not be happy to shoot the last one. Personally, I feel like they should get rid of every mule deer B tag.

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[Formidilosus]

combat low mule deer numbers and the low quality of mulie bucks.

. A real solid chance at mature bulls going crazy on wallows.

Let all the guys from Washington and Kalispell smash forken horn mulies in October along the Hi-Line then enjoy lower pressure in November.

You can’t have a five week general rifle season that runs through Thanksgiving and expect to maintain quality deer hunting.

They do like when they drive 6 hours from Missoula and shoot a forky because they decided that since they burnt all that money on gas they are gonna get something. I’m not against people punching tags out on whatever makes them happy but our current structure is getting a lot of 2.5 year old deer killed.

But also seeing other states that have more strict mule deer hunting regulations that pump out bigger bucks on average.

It really is hard to say what the long lasting effects of regulations like this were to be put in place. Maybe we would be seeing lots of mature bucks on the landscape?

Taking the season out of the rut is the biggest change and should absolutely be implemented first. To my unscientific mind, that alone is going to catalyze a significant change in age class structure.

Sorry I’ve got no sympathy for the clowns that preach it’s their God given heritage to stack up forkhorn horn rutting mule deer. Montana deserves better. The plan is a good one.

If you live here and want to see more mature animals on the landscape, then this isn't a bad idea.

Go rattle in a whitetail then

Wanting to see more mature animals on the landscape and wanting healthy mule deer herds aren't mutually exclusive priorities.

But that doesn't mean having older bucks on the landscape isn't a valid priority. It may not be yours, and that's fine.

And the quickest way to infuriate a MT hillbilly is to tell them they shouldn't be shooting a roadside forked horn mule deer with it's nose in a does hind end.

There are probably more elk hunters killing average sized mule deer bucks without permits than there were bucks killed in total in 70s and early 80s. Any bucks that live beyond a ripe old age of 3 have found safety living full time in a luxurious neighborhood where local morons are required to be more aggressive in their poaching tendencies.

Bigger deer and a more diverse age class are certainly a byproduct of this.

But to suggest hunting bucks into and through the peak of the rut every year with modern firearms does not impact the escapement of bucks is simply disingenuous. Greater escapement leads to greater recruitment. This leads to a more diverse age class and better distribution of bucks.

Colorado has 5x the population of residents compared to MT. Why does the majority of units have the potential at a 200" deer?

Remember- this isn’t about having “mature bigger bucks”, it’s about “healthy herd management”.

 

[RutandDie]

Guys just remember, if you argue with a fool, you yourself become one.

Don’t argue with an idiot because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience?

 

[Grundy53]

So how you going to model and manage that nightmare. Hey guys we got a cold snap coming, we’re going to issue an extra 12k tags so you guys get the meat rather than them rotting in the mountains. Makes a lot of sense Grundy…maybe think a little harder before you comment. I can read just fine.

I was merely pointing out that you can have a conservative harvest plan with plenty of escapement and still lose 20,000 deer because of a bad winter. Obviously, you can't plan for that. I was making a point that mother nature has a drastically bigger effect on population than hunters do.

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[RutandDie]

Remember- this isn’t about having “mature bigger bucks”, it’s about “healthy herd management”.

You know I actually have read and respect a lot of stuff that you have posted. You are way out of line on this one. Keep dropping scopes and testing bullets.

 

[Formidilosus]

You know I actually have read and respect a lot of stuff that you have posted. You are way out of line on this one. Keep dropping scopes and testing bullets.

What is the actual issue with the deer herd in eastern Montana?

 

[Jason Snyder]

What is the actual issue with the deer herd in eastern Montana?

For one, the number of mature bucks and overall number of bucks available to the public have decreased.

Speaking specifically to the Custer, the older bucks were actually more available on public land earlier in the hunting season. Now, there are very few older bucks around and the younger bucks will spend more time in proximity to the does, which will largely congregate on private land.

Reach out to Art Hayes on the committee. I’m sure he’d be happy to talk to you.

And for the record, I’m not a trophy hunter. The last few sets of antlers have met the sawzall and became dog chews. This isn’t about trophy management to me.

Frankly, I’m a dyed in the wool opportunity guy who hunts for the freezer and the experience. Period. I’ve long lobbied for as much opportunity as the resource can withstand and have fought against trophy management. This proposal is not trophy management IMO.

 

[fngTony]

Please remember to be respectful even if you don’t agree them.

 

[RutandDie]

For one, the number of mature bucks and overall number of bucks available to the public have decreased.

Speaking specifically to the Custer, the older bucks were actually more available on public land earlier in the hunting season. Now, there are very few older bucks around and the younger bucks will spend more time in proximity to the does, which will largely congregate on private land.

Reach out to Art Hayes on the committee. I’m sure he’d be happy to talk to you.

You can say it’s not a biological problem but when there is so much pressure from out of state and western Montana hunters and locals on public land that deer will no longer live on public. Something needs to change. The proposal distributes pressure, I am taking the whitetail tag every year until something changes with our mule deer. Also if I hold a LE elk tag and don’t have to wade through mule deer hunters that tag is going to be real good.

 

[ELKdeerMT]

I was merely pointing out that you can have a conservative harvest plan with plenty of escapement and still lose 20,000 deer because of a bad winter. Obviously, you can't plan for that. I was making a point that mother nature has a drastically bigger effect on population than hunters do.

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I think we both agree on that.

 

[Jason Snyder]

You can say it’s not a biological problem but when there is so much pressure from out of state and western Montana hunters and locals on public land that deer will no longer live on public. Something needs to change. The proposal distributes pressure, I am taking the whitetail tag every year until something changes with our mule deer. Also if I hold a LE elk tag and don’t have to wade through mule deer hunters that tag is going to be real good.

Agreed. I think having rut hunting concurrent with elk seasons puts unbelievable pressure on the bucks.

Montana’s quality of hunting for the public land hunter has no doubt diminished over the decades for deer and elk both, which is counter intuitive given the high elk numbers.

There is a population distribution issue that has resulted from never ending opportunity.

 

[Formidilosus]

For one, the number of mature bucks

I thought it wasn’t about big bucks though?

and overall number of bucks available to the public have decreased.

I saw well over 20 separate bucks in 3 days in a few square mile area this past year. I average 3-5 separate bucks a day throughout the season on public- that’s in multiple different units. And, as has been stated repeatedly in this thread- lots of bucks are getting killed during November. So if there are lots of bucks still getting killed, how exactly are there not enough bucks

 

[Jason Snyder]

I thought it wasn’t about big bucks though?




I saw well over 20 separate bucks in 3 days in a few square mile area this past year. I average 3-5 separate bucks a day throughout the season on public- that’s in multiple different units. And, as has been stated repeatedly in this thread- lots of bucks are getting killed during November. So if there are lots of bucks still getting killed, how exactly are there not enough bucks

You obviously missed the part where I stated mature bucks will distribute differently?

Shifting baselines. Some of us saw mule deer hunting on the Custer in the 90s and early 2000s. And the Breaks. And watched it crash. And realize it could be what it was.

Like I said, if good enough is good enough then carry on.

My prediction is 10 years from now folks will be wishing they’d seen the warning signs.

 

[Formidilosus]

You obviously missed the part where I stated mature bucks will distribute differently?

Shifting baselines. Some of us saw mule deer hunting on the Custer in the 90s and early 2000s. And the Breaks. And watched it crash. And realize it could be what it was.

Like I said, if good enough is good enough then carry on.

My prediction is 10 years from now folks will be wishing they’d seen the warning signs.

The warning signs of what?

 

[velvet muley]

Not according to Grundy buck harvest doesn’t matter. Open it up to rut hunting and stop doe harvest, problem solved. It is absolutely ludicrous the people trying to defend a statewide general rut hunt. It’s wrong on so many levels.

Agreed, the general rut hunt needs to go away, it takes to many great bucks out of the mix for people that put in the real work during the non-rut hunt. Stopping doe harvest and mandatory reporting would also go a LONG way to helping the herds.

What I don't like to see is moving the Elk archery a week back into August and ending at the end of September, that is clear cut taking opportunity away on a species that is mostly over objective.. The last three years I have killed 3 bulls in archery general units and 2 were the first week of October and 1 was the Sept. 28th.

From my experience the rut has been moving later into the end of Sept. early Oct. from what is used to be, I've been hunting elk for a long time and that is the trend I have experienced. The archer elk could still go into the first week of Oct, no reason to change that.

 

[RutandDie]

The whole reason I joined this forum is I honestly want to hear @robby denning opinions on a state wide general mule deer rut hunt. He has a ton of knowledge and I respect him.

 

[rogerthat]

The warning signs of what?

Form is 6 bucks to 100 does a healthy herd? Is no bucks over the age of 3.5 years in a unit a healthy herd? Just a smattering of some of the issues some Montana units face

 

[ELKdeerMT]

It’s sad to see these responses from a bunch of guys on a hunting forum. I would expect them from some Montana forkies facebook page but not guys intentionally spending time on a forum to discuss hunting topics. It just confirms the mindset of the average hunter and why they cannot be entrusted to mange a species.

These guys need to keep their heads down and keep fighting the good fight. If this is any indication of what they’re up against, Lord help them!

 

[Scottf270]

Is it wrong or a sin to want more deer and older bucks? Everyone acts like we can't have both, but they go hand in hand.
It really is simple. Quit shooting does ( grow population ) Quit shooting immature bucks ( allow more to reach maturity )

Some on here act like wanting more mature deer is a selfish act.
Isnt demanding being allowed to kill anything and everything at your pleasure just as selfish?

Which view point ends in more dead deer?
I'm willing to make sacrifices for a passion and resource I love.
Are any of the " it's my God given right to kill what I want " crowd willing to join me?