.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

[DJL2]

I wouldn't take an all copper bullet to 2000 fps, least of all a .223 caliber pill. There's just not enough margin for error there based on my shooting skill.

 

[TheGDog]

Put your velocity into a ballistics app and find out where the bullet drops below 2k FPS and that’s your max range, given you can shoot that far.

Doh! Right... it was late, wasn't thinking about the expansion threshold velocity issue. (Checks load..) Oh heck, that should be more than fine then for my purposes, for the 62gr Remington HogHammer it stays above 2k out to 350yds.

 

[flyinsquirel]

What would those of you with experience using a .223 Rem of the 55gr or 62gr Barnes TSX variety say should be the distance to limit a shot to, on... let's say a nicer sized SoCal Mule Deer in the weight range of... maybe.. 160-200 Lbs? Though they are rare for me, more like 130-140Lbs usually.

I've been tempted to try the .223 Rem in the thicker environments I hunt it where the distances are short. Pretty sure it would do fine there due to short distances. But I'm curious what the practical distances are considered for that round for when I'm in a more Open Country Desert Hills type of setting where they tend to present themselves significantly farther out like 200yd-600yd?

Just a heads up, I'm pretty darn sure 6mm is the minimum legal caliber for big game in CA.

 

[menhaden_man]

The TMK penetrates substantially better, particularly when driven hard, and expansion is still spectacular

Anyone know how those Sierra gamechanger bullets stack up? Asking because I grabbed two boxes a few months back and have yet to whack anything with it. Pretty sure I got a 64 gr 224 and a 125 gr 308 for reloading in two gas guns.

 

[Rob5589]

Just a heads up, I'm pretty darn sure 6mm is the minimum legal caliber for big game in CA.

Negative. Changed a while back. "Centerfire rifle using expanding bullets" is the regulation.

 

[flyinsquirel]

Negative. Changed a while back. "Centerfire rifle using expanding bullets" is the regulation.

Thats good news. Thanks for the education.

 

[TheGDog]

Just a heads up, I'm pretty darn sure 6mm is the minimum legal caliber for big game in CA.

That's a big negative. It just has to be a Centerfire cartridge. I'm newer to hunting so recently (2014) had to look thru all of this cause I damn sure didn't want any legal liabilities.

 

[cod0396]

For those of you that have used the 77gr TMK on game and have found that it matches or even surpasses the performance of far larger calibers - why do you think that is? I'd assume that rapid, consistent fragmentation plays a pretty big role.

 

[Formidilosus]

For those of you that have used the 77gr TMK on game and have found that it matches or even surpasses the performance of far larger calibers - why do you think that is? I'd assume that rapid, consistent fragmentation plays a pretty big role.

Well mainly due to ease of placement.


However, when you get to heavy for caliber bullets that fragment, there’s simply more bullet to fragment. A 77gr bullet in 30cal of like construction will penetrate about 6-8 inches at same velocity. A 77gr .224 bullet like the TMK penetrates 16-20 inches. People go the wrong way with “marginal” rounds- they think because it’s small that they need a super tough, deep penetrating bullet. All that does is create narrow wounds that take more time for the animal to succumb. A heavy, rapidly fragmenting bullet creates a much wider wound, while still having enough bullet to penetrate.

 

[SgtTanner]

I’m intrigued by this idea. I realize that this thread is mainly about the 77gr TMKs. Do any of you have experience with a heavy-for-caliber copper mono? Do they open reliably, and if so, are they as effective?

 

[BjornF16]

Heavy for caliber monos are a good example of what Form was referring to as tough construction, narrow wounding and delayed killing.

Monos are best utilized when light for caliber. Really need to pay attention to impact velocity in choosing max range for monos.

 

[SgtTanner]

Heavy for caliber monos are a good example of what Form was referring to as tough construction, narrow wounding and delayed killing.

Monos are best utilized when light for caliber. Really need to pay attention to impact velocity in choosing max range for monos.

Thanks. That makes sense. I have taken a couple deer and hogs with 55gr Barnes, I believe they were TTSX. They were DRT kind of kills, and lungs were pretty well liquefied. though I didn’t examine wound channels too much and didn’t recover projectiles. Just gutted and brought them to the processor.

 

[TheGDog]

In 2019's season. On that last weekend, since I'd had coyote pass by on other days while out there, I decided to bring my .223 Rem instead as an experiment. Figured I'd try it out on deer if I got lucky and one passed by. Or if coyote comes by, it wouldn't be as gnarly as a .308 Win on the pelt.

After observing what the 62gr Barnes TSX loaded in Remington HTP ammo did to the Bobcat that happened to saunter by... (Eek!) figure I'm definitely gonna give it a try next year for deer in that area since the shots are all close distance in that spot anyway cause it's thicker.

Observe the gaping hole in the cat...

 

[BjornF16]

Observe the gaping hole in the cat...

GDog, what range and impact velocity was that shot on bobcat?

I’m guessing in excess of 2400 FPS...

 

[TheGDog]

Yes, he was very close by, 25yd. Like I mentiond in the post, close distances. My point was more noting how I was impressed with the cavitation it left behind. And that's probably more because it hit the scapula, then the round itself. (Because I've noticed when using .223 Rem on Ground Squirrels, - EDIT: such as 50gr Hornady Full Boar, or 55gr Superformance GMX - they seem to just pencil right on thru since they are thin-skinned animals, and those are rounds meant for deer.) But still I was impressed!

Had a prior experience with a coyote, with a different bullet type (Underwood - Lehigh Controlled Chaos rounds), and not a great shot... so I'd been hesitant at the thought of using .223 Rem for deer because of that other experience. So this experience here with those 62gr Barnes TSX HTP's took away those fears. I had that load in the rifle because it was still deer season, and I was hoping for a deer. But like I said, a coyote had passed by on two prior outings there during the season. So if he came by again, I wanted to take him to save some fawns. So figured bring the .223 Rem and chance it.

 

[Medardlefevre]

I hunted white tail this past season with .223 in West Virginia. Most my shots are within 75 yards, so I don't need a lot of reach. At that distance there's more than enough stopping power. Photo of the euro I did from the buck I got this season with my AR set up

 

[cod0396]

Well mainly due to ease of placement.


However, when you get to heavy for caliber bullets that fragment, there’s simply more bullet to fragment. A 77gr bullet in 30cal of like construction will penetrate about 6-8 inches at same velocity. A 77gr .224 bullet like the TMK penetrates 16-20 inches. People go the wrong way with “marginal” rounds- they think because it’s small that they need a super tough, deep penetrating bullet. All that does is create narrow wounds that take more time for the animal to succumb. A heavy, rapidly fragmenting bullet creates a much wider wound, while still having enough bullet to penetrate.

When you say “super tough deep penetrating bullets”, are you mainly referring to monolothics like TSX/GMX or also bonded softpoints like 62gr fusion/gold dot, TBBC, RA556B, etc.? Before looking at this thread and other 77gr TMK threads I was under the impression that the bonded loads were the best choice for medium game (and I can clearly see now that the heavy fragmenting loads are superior) but would you say that bonded soft points are still better than monolithics in terms of tissue damage?

 

[DJL2]

I'll speak ahead of Form...tough applies, though to a lesser extent perhaps, to core bonded projectiles with thick jackets as well. That's a bullet that is going to be reluctant to open if it doesn't encounter significant resistance at high velocity. I hypothesize that these bullets were developed as part of a desire to punch through both shoulders or take game lengthwise on tougher/larger body weights. They give up significant effectiveness on more desirable cross body shots, especially those placed through the lungs.

.223 has the "advantage" of being light weight - so even tough bullets encounter good resistance on normal medium game weights provided their velocity is high enough.

I'm willing to try it once I can actually find some 77 TMK loaded and in stock somewhere. I've got some old school SMK, but I don't expect those to be as consistent. I adhere to the concept though. Even when I go big, I go soft. I developed a .30-06 load for hunting that uses a 208 grain ELD-M @ 2670 fps or so. My 7mm RM load is in progress, same idea - reliable fragmentation.

 

[Wilderlife]

I just got through reading this whole thread. Very entertaining!

A few thoughts on something I always find interesting...

I don't like it when people bring up a point like "well it might be good out to 100 yards, but what are you going to do when the trophy of a lifetime walks out at 400 yards?" This statement implies that all hunters are capable of adhering to a code of ethics - whatever that may be - UNLESS they are presented with a monster trophy, and then ethics goes out the window.

Of course, there are careless people in the world, but I believe most hunters do their very best to be as lethal and ethical as possible. I kill stacks of animals every year but I don't practice further than 200 yards. For this reason, I wouldn't shoot at an animal past this distance, be it with a .223, or a .300WM. The limitations for me at 400 yards are more about my ability to place the shot accurately, than they are about whatever the cartridge or projectile is, or what my rifles are capable of.

Thousands of medium-game (and some large game) animals are killed over here in Australia every year with a .223, or similar. Commercial shooters/harvesters typically use a .223, but some use .222, some use .243, and some use .22-250. I couldn't tell you how many pigs, fallow deer, and goats I've seen fall to a .224 centrefire rifle. The vast majority of my culling at night under the spotlight is with a .222 shooting 40gn Nosler BT's. Most of the shots I make are head shots but I've shot quite a few fallow deer through the ribs and they've all died fine.

Yes, culling at night from a vehicle with a good rest isn't really 'hunting', but for a long shot in the backcountry on a big target like an elk, I imagine you'll be using a decent rest of some sort?

The bottom line for me is that I usually use a larger rifle when I'm out and expecting to see larger game, but in our context over here, if you come across pest animals, they need to be destroyed, and I've had a .222 in my hands plenty when this has been the case and it's always done the job. I personally really like the 55gn Sierra SPBT in the .222. The slight drop in velocity compared to a .223 actually sees the bullet open up a little less, but penetrate further. Very mild to shoot and devastating on game.

 

[Lawnboi]

Bringing this back up to get some more reading now that hunting season is kicking off in some areas.

Im sitting on 500 77tmk and a 223 that’s stupid easy to shoot. Considering taking it out for mule deer in Montana this year as the build I was originally planning on for this hunt has hit some hickups, and I’m not sure carrying my 15 pound Match rifle is going to be much fun.