- Banned
- #21
Moserkr
WKR
Had a stare down two weeks ago at 30’ with a very large black bear that was eating my trash. The 9mm in my hand felt very small at the time.
Disclaimer: I've never hunted in grizzly territory and never seen a grizzly in person. I've hunted and backpack camped in New England black bear territory and seen a few bears in my time in the woods. Never any negative encounters with them.
H O W E V E R.....
In the early 2000's I was actively researching moving to Alaska. I browsed Alaska's OTC (over the counter) land sales. Also the state's land auctions. Talked to realtors. Haunted the Alaska forum on Outdoors Directory, and communicated via email with Alaska residents.
Grizzly bear defense was at times a topic, often deeply discussed. Here's what I took away from those conversations, regarding handguns for grizzly defense.
1. The only sure way to stop a grizzly is a shot to the brain or spine (central nervous system) with a large enough caliber packing enough energy. "Large enough caliber" starts with .44 magnum, which even Alaskans say is hardly enough.
2. A shot that breaks a shoulder or leg may also stop or slow down a charging bear. This doesn't mean you won't get mauled. "MAY STOP/SLOW DOWN" being the operative phrase.
3. Most persons in these encounters will be lucky if they even place a shot on the bear's body, let alone his brain, spine, or shoulder. One or a few guys on this very thread said their hands were shaking so badly they weren't sure they could hit the bear.
4. Many if not most bear attacks occur without warning from under 50 yards away. At 30 mph the bear's on you before you can draw your weapon, present the weapon, and fire. In these cases most victims are mauled. Some are killed.
5. Even when the charge starts farther away and gives you time to draw and aim, it's nearly impossible to get a brain hit on a bobbing bear's head going 30 mph. In other words, a one shot stop (CNS kill shot) will happen mostly (if not always) by luck.
If you can pump enough rounds into the beast you may slow or kill it, but we've all seen the vids of bears taking 3 or 4 RIFLE hits from hunters who had time to get into position and aim before firing. If these guys with time to aim, who put multiple RIFLE rounds into a bear's body, haven't killed the bear with those shots, how will I (you) kill a bear when I get only 2 hits on it's charging body at 60 yards (1st shot) and 20 yards (2nd shot) with a 9mm or .357 handgun?
My Conclusions, For Myself
1. Most of the Alaskans I talked to said a large enough handgun caliber starts at .44 mag. However, that's bare minimum (no pun intended) and requires CNS hit to be effective. Any charging, angry grizz hit in any non-lethal body area with .44 mag rounds will chew your pistol hand off when he/she knocks you down.
2. If I ever move, hunt, backpack, or otherwise step foot in the Alaskan bush, I'll be carrying two bear defense weapons:
a) An 8 3/8" barreled S&W .500 Magnum. And I'll have practiced hard and long with it; from overcoming flinch, to keeping both my old eyes open, to follow up shots, to moving targets.
b) Bear spray. Yes. Bear spray. I've read enough and talked to one person who repelled a charge with spray. I've read, however, that spray doesn't necessarily stop an attack in progress. That's why a firearm is (to me) absolutely necessary besides just spray. Wind conditions are another reason to carry a gun instead of just spray.
Now, between spray and gun, who knows what I'd draw first if ever in the nightmare of a grizzly charge. Spray sounds good sitting at this keyboard, having read the spray success stories and talking to that one guy who used spray. But nothing beats the feel of a powerful handgun that you know you can shoot well gripped tight when trouble appears.
3. I condition one carried a 1911 for over 40 years. As well as Colt 10mm and G19. While a few people have indeed killed grizzly with a 9mm, I'd never carry a .45 ACP, .357, 9mm, or 10mm for grizzly defense if I had other choices instead. Here's why. Humans can survive multiple hits (non CNS) of those calibers. Putting three to thirteen of those slugs into a charging bear is only gonna piss him off more than he already is; and payback's gonna be severe when he finally reaches you.
Suggestion To OP
Go to the Alaska forum on Outdoors Directory and ask the guys living in Alaska if they'd carry a .357 or 9mm for grizz protection.
Then research "dangerous game handgun cartridges" to see what the .460 Linebaugh, .475/.480 Ruger, .500 Linebaugh, and .500 S&W magnum have taken as big game.
Post Script
I never moved to Alaska. I continued operating my business into the late 2000's. Then, in 2019 while I was reacquainting myself with a move to Alaska, my mother had a severe stroke which paralyzed her. I had to put her in a nursing home, sell her home, and liquidate everything she ever owned.
As the only son it's my responsibility to watch over her and the d@mn nursing home. Not sure I could ever enjoy the wilds of Alaska and my hard earned retirement knowing there's no one at home watching out for my 92 year old mother.
Life happens. Then we face our Maker. It's more important to get right with Him than move to (fill in the blank).
Read my post again. I flat out said I'd need to practice with a S&W .500 magnum.Can you shoot the double action quickly AND accurately? Most revolver guys practice from single action which is not how defensive shooting will evolve.
Fwiw, I have killed a bear just feet away using a 10mm and I carry a 9mm with 147berrys hybrids when archery hunting in griz country. My shot splits are better, I am more accurate and if I need to signal, I have 16 rounds.
I hunt with revolvers, but choose autos for defensive situations.
Sold a Colt 10m in the late 1990's. What a mistake!My hunting partner carries a 38 snub nose. I offered to let him carry one of my 10 mils. He said, "38 is enough. I'm just gonna shoot you in the knee and run like hell!"
What a great friend.
I carry a 10mm whenever I am on or off of the beaten path.
Are you doing ok man? Seriously I mean it.
My post had absolutely nothing to do with your post. Literally nothing. I never referenced you, quoted you, or even read your post. I skimmed right over it.
You'll carry that 500 for a little while. Then you'll realize you're packing a boat anchor for an extremely unlikely and buy something lighter.Read my post again. I flat out said I'd need to practice with a S&W .500 magnum.
Now, I can shoot my 6" S&W 629-1 (.44 mag) fast enough I occasionally used it for plate shoots only 5 years ago.
I can shoot a .500 S&W half as fast as the 629-1, and about as accurate, too. But, again, I'd need practice, practice, practice with a .500 mag.
I'm much faster, accurate with my early 1990's vintage ParaOrdnance 1911's (P12, P13, and P14) than any revolver. Carried, competed, and used a 1911 since the mid 70s.
Black or grizz with the 10 mm? Was it charging you or did it not see you when you fired?
Not to minimize your kill or skill, but there's a huge difference between killing a bear who doesn't know you're there, and where you can take your time to aim.....and killing a bear that's charging you out of nowhere, intending to kill you, with little or no time to aim for kill zone.
Regarding your comment of "best is to not have to shoot."Thread fighting aside ...
As others have noted, either "can" work. Best is to not have to shoot. You'll never know if you are dealing with a highly motivated bear until it happens. Like most animals, they can travel a long way mortally wounded.
Obviously, some rounds are more powerful, but that won't help if you miss.
Hard Cast used to be the way to go. However, companies like Underwood are recommending their solid copper penetrators as well now.
Carrying a particular firearm, shooting that firearm at a range, and killing a grizzly with that firearm are three different things.
How many guys do you know who killed a grizzly with their G20?