Are Thermal Devices Ethical For Predawn Scouting and Hiking?

[CHAD PEZZLE]

Yes... why not? They do deer population surveys right? If there is an issue, they simply reduce number of tags for whichever zone. Which I doubt would ever need to happen as a result of now allowing a piece of tech previously not allowed, for all the same reasons I already rattled off.

Just because they then might become allowed.. doesn't mean YOU have to elect to use them. You can still elect to show everybody how "macho" you are and elect NOT to use them. That's certainly your perogative. Me personally? "Work smart, not hard." has served me well for 5 decades.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's not about who works harder or not, and it's not about who's macho.

California's deer population continues to decline. I don't think advocating to make it easier to kill bucks is going to have a net positive on over all population over time.

People's biggest complaints when hunting the west is opportunity or lack there of. I love hunting and I want my kids to have similar opportunities as they grow up. Having to wait ten years to draw a tag that once was available over the counter and use my thermal to kill a dink buck is not how I want my kids to see hunting.

 

[TheGDog]

People's biggest complaints when hunting the west is opportunity or lack there of. I love hunting and I want my kids to have similar opportunities as they grow up. Having to wait ten years to draw a tag that once was available over the counter and use my thermal to kill a dink buck is not how I want my kids to see hunting.

Hmmph.. Ok... So a question for you to get you thinking here..

Would I be far off the mark... if I were to make the assumption that you just might also happen to be a member of the group of people among the masses... that takes issue with the true solution to that problem?.... which is humanity attempting to take steps to rectify our own population numbers being allowed to get too damn high? (Which would fix literally just about EVERYTHING all these politicos AND scientists AND pseudo-scientists care to bring up as an excuse for taking away more and more of our rights, and taxing us further, but I digress)

Would I be correct in assuming you just might be in that camp of people whom come from an indoctrinated belief system and thus loose their isht when someone suggests the same types of methods we use for all other "game management".... applying some of the same types of actions in terms of our own numbers and getting it more back in check?

This is not meant as a dig to persons whom have elected to go this route in their beliefs. More-over, stating this question out-loud is more about calling into the open most peoples confirmation bias which disallows them from even being able to see the validity of various solutions or observations made by others.

You want your kid to be able to enjoy it. I'm sure we'd all like to have that. I certainly would. But.. with more and more and more 2-legged predators every single year having more than the previous?.. and them being fed up with the stresses of the world we're forced to live in... seeking out a more visceral experience to distract them from the sh*t-show of our reality.... well certainly anyone with half-a-lick of sense in their heads can see the truth in the statement I just made. And yet... there will be a great delay in humanity FINALLY taking action in terms of this very blatant and obvious writing-on-the-wall here in terms of our population size and it's impact and just about every dang thing.

For example, what I said was true. Pretty much all the problems they wanna *itch about right now, could be easily solved in about 50yrs tops. Just GTFO of the way in terms of attempting to impose your indoctrinated pre-conceived notions upon the rest of us, in terms of population numbe4rs control. But will they do it? Immediate answer is "No", but reality is reality and eventually it WILL be "Yes", it's just a matter of time and them being hard-headed about it. And them experiencing hardship personally because of these symptoms before they finally get it that it will be necessary. But who knows, we may luckout and some new Fauci experiment will escape again, and this time actually be something worth worrying about and help drop our numbers down a significant notch or two. It's basic Biology 101. You get too much of a particular food source in abundance, you're eventually going to have another organism which will exploit it. Well.. we've gotten pretty good with our "stupid human tricks" in terms of medical tech, and weaponry and societal living such that not a lot of natural enemies taking us out with any real regularity. So what's gonna happen? A germ.

RE: the plan? I call the plan "Replace Yourself" and it's simple and easy. From every Human loin, no more than 2 offspring. (Cause we saw WTF happens when China did 1, major bad result, with 2.. these dipsh*ts that pridefully want to insist that their surname get passed down can't complain, they had a 50-50 chance, just like everyone else) And we'll even give ya a do-over if your kid dies in the first 3 yrs of life. Then.. we just sit back and let natural mortality rates just do what they do. And slowly I presume over the same amount of time it took for our numbers to grow this damn large... they'll ebb back down.

The key here is, the change and reduction in humans has to be done gradually otherwise it'll mess up the economies ability to make adjustments as needed, which would be bad for all.

 

[CHAD PEZZLE]

Hmmph.. Ok... So a question for you to get you thinking here..

Would I be far off the mark... if I were to make the assumption that you just might also happen to be a member of the group of people among the masses... that takes issue with the true solution to that problem?.... which is humanity attempting to take steps to rectify our own population numbers being allowed to get too damn high? (Which would fix literally just about EVERYTHING all these politicos AND scientists AND pseudo-scientists care to bring up as an excuse for taking away more and more of our rights, and taxing us further, but I digress)

Would I be correct in assuming you just might be in that camp of people whom come from an indoctrinated belief system and thus loose their isht when someone suggests the same types of methods we use for all other "game management".... applying some of the same types of actions in terms of our own numbers and getting it more back in check?

This is not meant as a dig to persons whom have elected to go this route in their beliefs. More-over, stating this question out-loud is more about calling into the open most peoples confirmation bias which disallows them from even being able to see the validity of various solutions or observations made by others.

You want your kid to be able to enjoy it. I'm sure we'd all like to have that. I certainly would. But.. with more and more and more 2-legged predators every single year having more than the previous?.. and them being fed up with the stresses of the world we're forced to live in... seeking out a more visceral experience to distract them from the sh*t-show of our reality.... well certainly anyone with half-a-lick of sense in their heads can see the truth in the statement I just made. And yet... there will be a great delay in humanity FINALLY taking action in terms of this very blatant and obvious writing-on-the-wall here in terms of our population size and it's impact and just about every dang thing.

For example, what I said was true. Pretty much all the problems they wanna *itch about right now, could be easily solved in about 50yrs tops. Just GTFO of the way in terms of attempting to impose your indoctrinated pre-conceived notions upon the rest of us, in terms of population numbe4rs control. But will they do it? Immediate answer is "No", but reality is reality and eventually it WILL be "Yes", it's just a matter of time and them being hard-headed about it. And them experiencing hardship personally because of these symptoms before they finally get it that it will be necessary. But who knows, we may luckout and some new Fauci experiment will escape again, and this time actually be something worth worrying about and help drop our numbers down a significant notch or two. It's basic Biology 101. You get too much of a particular food source in abundance, you're eventually going to have another organism which will exploit it. Well.. we've gotten pretty good with our "stupid human tricks" in terms of medical tech, and weaponry and societal living such that not a lot of natural enemies taking us out with any real regularity. So what's gonna happen? A germ.

RE: the plan? I call the plan "Replace Yourself" and it's simple and easy. From every Human loin, no more than 2 offspring. (Cause we saw WTF happens when China did 1, major bad result, with 2.. these dipsh*ts that pridefully want to insist that their surname get passed down can't complain, they had a 50-50 chance, just like everyone else) And we'll even give ya a do-over if your kid dies in the first 3 yrs of life. Then.. we just sit back and let natural mortality rates just do what they do. And slowly I presume over the same amount of time it took for our numbers to grow this damn large... they'll ebb back down.

The key here is, the change and reduction in humans has to be done gradually otherwise it'll mess up the economies ability to make adjustments as needed, which would be bad for all.

WOW! That's an impressive wall of text.

You've gone from hunting with thermal to human population control, talk about a tangent.

Was there a question at all in there? It seemed like more of a rant. I don't even know how to un pack all that.

Fact: Other than bringing my own kids into this world, I have literally zero affect on the population of the earth let alone a means of de-populating it. I hope to raise my kids to be good humans with some conservative or even libertarian's views, other than that the population is literally out of our control.

Fact: Deer population and hunting, although pretty limited, I can have an affect on by advocating what I think is helpful to continue a sustainable population. Contributing money to different org's with similar goals, or even writing letters or attending meetings. The audience is smaller and generally most hunters have similar views on the subject, it's an area I feel I can affect change.

I can see the headline: "Less People=More Deer For Hunters"

 

[TheGDog]

RE: Talk about a tangent. What does it matter if the two are definitely related as I pointed out?

RE: The population is literally out of our control. Really? So... all that stuff which happened in China.. didn't? I'm merely pointing out that this statement is incorrect. Difficult to pull off perhaps.. but NOT "out of our control".

RE: affecting change - agree that participation in our focused groups is paramount.

RE: Headline - Actually "Who knew? supposed Global Warming (which we're told is due to man-made actions) can be cured by reducing the number of men walkin' around doing those actions! Who knew!"

 

[Mtnboy]

GDog…if I’m being completely honest I don’t even have a clue what point you are trying to prove at this point?

We need to reduce human population so you can be allowed to hunt with a thermal?

Either way we’ll have to agree to disagree….

I’m headed to the Wilderness for 10 days to chase bucks, I sure hope I can manage to find and kill one without night vision and laser guided bullets…..

 

[TheGDog]

GDog…if I’m being completely honest I don’t even have a clue what point you are trying to prove at this point?

We need to reduce human population so you can be allowed to hunt with a thermal?

Either way we’ll have to agree to disagree….

I’m headed to the Wilderness for 10 days to chase bucks, I sure hope I can manage to find and kill one without night vision and laser guided bullets…..

No... we need to reduce human population for a whole sh*t-ton of reasons, all of them which will have a painful outcome. One of the MANY pluses... will be improved game populations.

I sincerely hope you can find a buck as well!

One of the bigger take-aways is that we should not begrudge someone wanting to employ a different tech/discovery, than what WE happen to be currently using, as unfair. The rifle... duh.. is hella unfair. The bow.. duh.. is also surprisingly unfair. Bout the only "fair" means of take is spear or atlatl. Or traps. Everything else is you employing what could be construed as an "unfair advantage".

So imagine me making that statement, then all these people with their confirmation biases then trying to tell me how "that's different".

So... full circle... it's the pot calling the kettle black when someone says "That's unfair!" as they sit there with their rifle or bow. Furthermore, re the population issue, it's me pointing out how errbody and their mama wants to b*Tch about things, but nobody ever wants to do the real work needed to cure the problem... especially our politicos... because the moment they were to take a logical, yet unpopular stance, their career is over. Hence the reason these a-holes are able to snow people and sell 'em "fake cures" for sh*t such as The Green New Deal, more taxation, more restriction on your daily life, more intrusion.

 

[TheGDog]

We need to reduce human population so you can be allowed to hunt with a thermal?

Where in the fizzuck did you come up with this shizzle? NO.... this False Equivalency YOU stated here is NOT what I said.

If anything what could be inferred is we need to reduce human population if persons such as yourself don't want to allow people to freely spend their hard-earned money (and use it) as they see fit and use such tech advantages. Because stating it's a huge advantage is a moot point the moment you pickup a gun or a bow.

 

[roosiebull]

IMHO each hunter defines their own Fair Chase.

well said

as far as IR, i would need to see one work in the woods to form an opinion

 

[dirtytough]

well said

as far as IR, i would need to see one work in the woods to form an opinion

I bet most posters on this thread have barely used one if at all. It is not the advantage some seem to think it is. Rifles, rangefinders, OnX, scopes, etc are all a way bigger advantage than thermal.

 

[roosiebull]

I bet most posters on this thread have barely used one if at all. It is not the advantage some seem to think it is. Rifles, rangefinders, OnX, scopes, etc are all a way bigger advantage than thermal.

that's what i'm thinking, in theory it seems like they would be a huge advantage, but i'm skeptical that they are in the real world.... i honestly figured they were already illegal in most states, but have not looked into it.... way, way down my list of giving a damn

i think for western hunting, OnX is the biggest advantage in technology in several year.... maybe since range finders. we as humans like to think the tech we use is acceptable, but any more is cheating, haha.... if it's legal, it's not worth arguing about, because when others aren't watching, people will do what they're gonna do, whether i approve or not.

i cannot think of a scenario a thermal would benefit me, i enjoy the process of hunting, don't care that much about antlers, and am not currently shopping for shortcuts.... that in itself is probably a little hypocritical, because my "to buy" list coming up before next fall is a pair of NL pures, and going to spend some money on my rifle, to make it more efficient, so there's that, haha.

it's good we have varying opinions, and talk about them, but i wish the hunting community was a little more open minded..... not to make everything legal, but to objectively decide what's best for the future of hunting, that's what matters.

i would personally like to go back 25yrs, and stop applicable technology there, but we are way passed that of course. we do need to pay attention though, i don't want any technology that will compromise our opportunity to hunt. i think some technology is a hinderance to learning for newer hunters. i'm not very old (37) but i feel very fortunate that i started hunting before the internet information blew up.... i also feel very fortunate i had nobody to show me the ropes, had to figure it out on my own, and i think that forced in a lot of very useful experience, had to learn by necessity..... no predetermined ideas or thought processes....

 

[jmez]

. we as humans like to think the tech we use is acceptable, but any more is cheating, haha....

Bingo!

 

[MuleyFever]

Rifles, rangefinders, onx, scopes, etc are all worthless if you cannot find game. Thermals help you find the game in an area in a matter of seconds so, I would have to disagree that those things are all a way bigger advantage.

 

[jmez]

Have to be able to find it to kill it. Have to be able to kill it after you have found it. Chicken egg argument.

 

[Steves29]

I bet most posters on this thread have barely used one if at all. It is not the advantage some seem to think it is. Rifles, rangefinders, OnX, scopes, etc are all a way bigger advantage than thermal.

I spent 4 months roadtrip camping across 13 states last summer. I had a trijicon REAPIR thermal, considered one of the better civilian models available. I was in just about every type of terrain you can imagine and spent probably 50-100 hours of time on the thermals as it turned into an amazing look into the life of animals after dark. I can promise you without equivocation that it would be an ABSURD advantage for a hunter. I could literally "glass" a whole mountainside in seconds day or night and spot bedded deer and elk even in the trees, Hell I could even spot rabbits, beavers, and mice. I grew up in the Yukon in areas with abundant wildlife and I have never "seen" so many animals, even in what seemed like a pretty spartan area during the daytime.

I've read through this thread with a great deal of surprise. While I totally agree that everything after the most rudimentary tactics of early man is a technical advantage, I'm not sure where this all or nothing mentality comes from. The truth is with a population density of 1/10th of today and primitive rifles, early Americans managed to decimate whole species by the millions. Obviously wildlife management is the only way to manage game animals and keep hunting alive but as a poster said earlier, if you keep pouring tech into the hunting world and more importantly legalizing it's use then it will continue to be an arms race where those with the money and access will end up taking the majority of the game and tags(assuming prices keep going up due to competition)

 

[jmez]

Tech has nothing to do with the developing arms race in hunting.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

[robby denning]

It would probably work best when hooked up to a drone……

Which is now occurring. Had a very reliable friend witness it this year two nights in a row. Reported it. G&F doing a scramble trying to figure out what to do. for the state it occurred in (Utah), they’re thinking was they’d have to enforce it as an FAA violation as drones aren’t (supposed to be) legal to fly at night. They felt pretty powerless it seemed.

This subject is going to heat up and it should.

 

[robby denning]

that's what i'm thinking, in theory it seems like they would be a huge advantage, but i'm skeptical that they are in the real world..

Hey bro’ that’s what I originally thought but talking to guys who use them for predators and some first responders who do Search & Rescue, we are wrong. They are very effective at locating and identifying game in dark. I haven’t ever looked through one, but I trust these guys opinions

 

[Bubblehide]

Which is now occurring. Had a very reliable friend witness it this year two nights in a row. Reported it. G&F doing a scramble trying to figure out what to do. for the state it occurred in (Utah), they’re thinking was they’d have to enforce it as an FAA violation as drones aren’t (supposed to be) legal to fly at night. They felt pretty powerless it seemed.

This subject is going to heat up and it should.

They could just make it a violation to possess when hunting big game and let the FAA deal with their end.

 

[riversidejeep]

I spent 4 months roadtrip camping across 13 states last summer. I had a trijicon REAPIR thermal, considered one of the better civilian models available. I was in just about every type of terrain you can imagine and spent probably 50-100 hours of time on the thermals as it turned into an amazing look into the life of animals after dark. I can promise you without equivocation that it would be an ABSURD advantage for a hunter. I could literally "glass" a whole mountainside in seconds day or night and spot bedded deer and elk even in the trees, Hell I could even spot rabbits, beavers, and mice. I grew up in the Yukon in areas with abundant wildlife and I have never "seen" so many animals, even in what seemed like a pretty spartan area during the daytime.

I've read through this thread with a great deal of surprise. While I totally agree that everything after the most rudimentary tactics of early man is a technical advantage, I'm not sure where this all or nothing mentality comes from. The truth is with a population density of 1/10th of today and primitive rifles, early Americans managed to decimate whole species by the millions. Obviously wildlife management is the only way to manage game animals and keep hunting alive but as a poster said earlier, if you keep pouring tech into the hunting world and more importantly legalizing it's use then it will continue to be an arms race where those with the money and access will end up taking the majority of the game and tags(assuming prices keep going up due to competition)

^^^^^ This

 

[AKBC]

Compliance with the law is our most basic definition of ethics and what we should expect from other hunters (many of us choose to go beyond mere legal compliance but shouldn't hold others to that standard). A better title for this thread would be: "Should Thermal Devices be Legal?"