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Arrow Dynamics: A Series on Hunting Arrows, By Daykota Kime

dkime

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Thanks Justin, I appreciate you guys taking the time to read my rants. I understand this was kind of high level and that there are a lot of opportunities to play with arrow FOC and many different methods to skinning a cat but maybe this adds a bit of clarity to a subject we've all heard a lot about lately.

DK
 

robby denning

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it did for me. Humans tend to run to extremes and this helped me understand what needs to be considered for good flight, killing power; not just super high FOC
 

dkime

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When I saw the thread title I thought it was going to be a review of the company "Arrow Dynamics" and their arrows.
I think you're the first person to mention that company to me in at least five years lol Not sure why they didn't gain much of a following, the tapered shaft concept has a lot of benefits!
 
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I think you're the first person to mention that company to me in at least five years lol Not sure why they didn't gain much of a following, the tapered shaft concept has a lot of benefits!
Because GrizzlyStik makes a much better shaft, and it's tapered as well. They do have a large following.
 

dkime

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Because GrizzlyStik makes a much better shaft, and it's tapered as well. They do have a large following.
Are you referring to tolerances or strength in terms of a better shaft? I've looked at the grizzlystik shafts before but never found a good reason to ditch my current setup. What is your current setup with them and specs right now? I saw you're running an OT2 tuning thread, how accurate have you found the database to be? I wish that Victory would find a way to develop their new Stainless steel technology into the grizzlystik shafts, could be a sweet setup for the guys who love heavy arrows!
 

5MilesBack

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Not sure why they didn't gain much of a following, the tapered shaft concept has a lot of benefits!
I hated the AD tapered shafts. Their parallel shafts were fine, but not any better than what's already out there. I have never seen a need to even try the Grizzlystiks....even if I was hunting Cape Buffalo.......which is on my bucket list. But ya, people these days overthink everything. Perhaps if I didn't have a 32 1/2" draw and 80lb bow I'd also overthink everything.;) But even with OCD it's possible to get a great setup without going overboard.
 

dkime

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I hated the AD tapered shafts. Their parallel shafts were fine, but not any better than what's already out there. I have never seen a need to even try the Grizzlystiks....even if I was hunting Cape Buffalo.......which is on my bucket list. But ya, people these days overthink everything. Perhaps if I didn't have a 32 1/2" draw and 80lb bow I'd also overthink everything.;) But even with OCD it's possible to get a great setup without going overboard.
Sounds to me like you should be shopping for stabilizers and screwing broadheads to the front of them to get things to spine out correctly! What is your complete setup? I've never met anyone who is generating as much momentum as what you probably are.
 

Beendare

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Pardon my contrary view here....but can you prove your statement that high FOC arrows are more accurate at long range?

None of the top pros in Fita, ASA or anything archery use a very high FOC arrow. Zero.

If very high FOC arrows were more accurate...don't you think the guys that would sell their sole for a little more accuracy would being using it?


Even the guy promoting this stuff years ago has been debunked with his theory that EFOC arrows actually carry further. That defies the laws of physics. When the Physics community questioned him, the study he did was with wooden dowels and rubber bands. This is the guy promoting EFOC.....be careful who you believe.

Easton recommends 8%-16%....IMHO, a guy would be wise to listen to the guys engineering and testing these arrows for over 50 years.


______

Its my experience that FOC is a non issue....nothing to get worked up about. Tuning for perfect arrow flight is numero uno...as you mentioned. Arrow weight and an efficient BH are the main factors in better penetration. Simple. Sorry bro......
 

bmart2622

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This whole Ashby study that has come back to light recently and has sparked all of this extreme FOC stuff. There is no denying that there is truth to his work but it is also 30 yrs old. There is some value in carrying weight up front but I feel that a heavier arrow properly spined to your bow is the best approach and then the let the FOC fall where it may.
 

dkime

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Pardon my contrary view here....but can you prove your statement that high FOC arrows are more accurate at long range?

None of the top pros in Fita, ASA or anything archery use a very high FOC arrow. Zero.

If very high FOC arrows were more accurate...don't you think the guys that would sell their sole for a little more accuracy would being using it?


Even the guy promoting this stuff years ago has been debunked with his theory that EFOC arrows actually carry further. That defies the laws of physics. When the Physics community questioned him, the study he did was with wooden dowels and rubber bands. This is the guy promoting EFOC.....be careful who you believe.

Easton recommends 8%-16%....IMHO, a guy would be wise to listen to the guys engineering and testing these arrows for over 50 years.


______

Its my experience that FOC is a non issue....nothing to get worked up about. Tuning for perfect arrow flight is numero uno...as you mentioned. Arrow weight and an efficient BH are the main factors in better penetration. Simple. Sorry bro......

I'm not sure where it was that I said that to tell ya the truth. "High arrow FOC has shown benefits in downrange accuracy" I did my best to frame the discussion here in regards to hunting arrows. But we can definitely go down the rabbit hole of tournament setups if you like but I didn't feel like many people on this sight would be interested in that.

FITA, ASA, IBO, NFAA, World Archery, etc. they all have 1 thing in common. They're all won by people who shoot much better than the purveyors of this forum. Unless there are a few individuals on here that I'm unaware of. Some of the information I used in this article was provided by Tim G.

I also feel I addressed where those percentages came from on recommendations from the Mfg. To be fair as well, in my past life I was one of those "engineering guys"

Again, I don't think that I made the statement High FOC arrows we're inherently more accurate than one of a lesser percentage and If I'm being entirely truthful I wrote this article to convey to people that they aren't. The entire basis of the article was around identifying what setup is right for YOU and using FOC as a tuning technique for manipulating Dynamic spine. I'm assuming you dipped out on the article a little bit early, which is cool because I get that its lengthy. but I'll give you the last sentence of it to help clarify that It seems were in the same camp.


"Before you go sacrificing forgiveness and arrow stability for the sake of a high FOC, remember that proper flight of a durable heavy arrow and a high degree of shooting ability will win every single time."
 

dkime

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This whole Ashby study that has come back to light recently and has sparked all of this extreme FOC stuff. There is no denying that there is truth to his work but it is also 30 yrs old. There is some value in carrying weight up front but I feel that a heavier arrow properly spined to your bow is the best approach and then the let the FOC fall where it may.
Completely in agreement with you. Dynamic spine wins every single time. The only reason I typically adjust FOC is when I'm attempting to build a heavier hunting arrow and can't get there with normal components alone.
 
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Are you referring to tolerances or strength in terms of a better shaft? I've looked at the grizzlystik shafts before but never found a good reason to ditch my current setup. What is your current setup with them and specs right now? I saw you're running an OT2 tuning thread, how accurate have you found the database to be? I wish that Victory would find a way to develop their new Stainless steel technology into the grizzlystik shafts, could be a sweet setup for the guys who love heavy arrows!
Both. Their tolerances are crazy tight, but the strength is pretty much unmatched. We shot a Momentum Black into a cinder block over 20 times before it broke.

I'm currently shooting a full length 400 Momentum TDT with a 200 grain Samurai and an extra 120 grains of brass. 655 TAW, %27ish FOC.

The database for OT2 isn't bad. I don't really use it for anything else than trying to get guys close on setups. It's one guy that created/ owns it so he just kind of gets to stuff when he gets to it. You'll never be able to do tapered shafts on there correctly though, because depending on whether you cut from the front or the back will drastically change your dynamic reaction.

GrizzlyStik focuses on high FOC arrows, so the Xtorsion wouldn't be very condusive to that. We've build 2000+ grain arrows with the TDT setup. Not sure how much heavier you'd want to go. :)
 

bmart2622

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Thats interesting to hear your take on the Grizzlystik. Another member posted his results and the Grizzlystik broke on the second impact.
 

dkime

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A 2000gr arrow reminds me of the meme about guys with 50cal handguns. Useful for when there's a burglar behind the refridgerator…….in the neighbors house lol Send pics if you ever decide to run it though something!
 
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Thats interesting to hear your take on the Grizzlystik. Another member posted his results and the Grizzlystik broke on the second impact.
Do you know where the thread is on that?

I haven’t torture tested the TDT’s. I’m too cheap. Our test was done on the last generation of arrows. But I know a buddy of mine was literally swinging them like a baseball bat against some of his workout equipment and they didn’t even splinter.
 
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A 2000gr arrow reminds me of the meme about guys with 50cal handguns. Useful for when there's a burglar behind the refridgerator…….in the neighbors house lol Send pics if you ever decide to run it though something!
Completely useless IMO. Lol

We built it for some bow efficiency tests. The bows we tested were STILL gaining kinetic energy/ momentum when we were over the 2000 grain mark.
 
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