Bullet proof elk

[doc holiday13]

Has Dr. Ashby entered this chat yet?

 

[S-3 ranch]

I’m kinda burnt out on this debate
I am 100% satisfied with .270 -.35 cal on elk
im not in the .22 cal with heavy bullets club but
I don’t discount 24-25 or 6.5 caliber with shot placement

 

[JBahr]

I'll add some performance data to the argument... On a recent Elk Dispersal project in CO I was encouraged to use monos to be able to "disperse" elk from national parks, SWA's and refuges. I worked up a 180gr Hornady CX load for my 300 WSM. Muzzle velocity 2925 fps measured with a chrono. Two elk were dispersed.

First: broadside, 300 yards, straight up the leg above the knuckle, entered between ribs, heart shot, shattered offside knuckle, no exit. She dropped in her tracks. Impact velocity 2577 fps.

Second: Broadside 300 yards first shot back of the lungs/liver midway up the body 3" forward of diaphragm, through one rib on entrance and exit. Impact velocity 2577 fps, .30 cal sized entrance and exit. I poorly supported the rear of the rifle, and pulled the shot. She stayed upright walking slowly, follow up shot high shoulder impact, looking to anchor her. She dropped immediately, 300 yards, same impact velocity, no exit. We were allowed to take meat of one elk home, the other was donated. I ended up with the second elk.

I was pretty surprised to find the second bullet just under the scapula (bullet pictured on laying on the scapula), against the rib cage/spine conjunction with very little expansion. Obviously effective but the lack of expansion, penetration on the second shot and the lack of expansion on the first shot was surprising. At these velocities I expected more.

Just my observations...

 

[Short Track]

Obviously effective but the lack of expansion, penetration on the second shot and the lack of expansion on the first shot was surprising. At these velocities I expected more.

Just my observations...

I too experienced lack of expansion with copper bullets. Barnes TTSX. Not sure if I'll be using them again.
I'd rather have destructive fragmentation with lead. But I'm not a ballistics guy.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I too experienced lack of expansion with copper bullets. Barnes TTSX. Not sure if I'll be using them again.
I'd rather have destructive fragmentation with lead. But I'm not a ballistics guy.

Can you recall the range/velocity at impact? Which caliber, if bullet was recovered were you able to measure the diameter across the petals? Animal (I gather an elk) went a ways after impact, etc?

I am a mono shooter in full disclosure, always wanting to understand the particulars that lead to observations, regardless of the projectile or style.

I can see where the observations being shared are coming from, so humor me on this next part.

My first elk ('98) was with a Barnes 180 XBT From a 300 Win Mag at 324 yds. MV just over 3000 fps. Dropped on the spot and made a half dollar size hole through both lungs. Not much for pictures and the "wow" factor of vital destruction, but dead. Second elk ('02) was the 225 X from the 35 Whelen AI. Bang, flop at 223 yds with same half dollar size hole through both lungs and no wow factor again for pictures of vital destruction, but fell in the tracks it was standing in.

Relatively speaking, is it lack of bullet expansion, or is it bullet integrity after expanding that is how things could be phrased or described? In the above examples, the bullets didn't come apart like a frangible long range bullet but they sure as heck expanded and the animals went no where.

Picture below. Two .358 Barnes X bullets, only two Barnes bullets of any variety I have ever recovered from an animal. These were from elk on strong quartering shots and found diagonally at the other end of the elk relative to their entry point. One is a 200 gr, the other a 250 grain. 2400 fps impact velocity (approximate) for both. .736" expanded diameter across the petals on both.




Was this lack of expansion (as it is being discussed) or bullet integrity after expansion since they made nice holes (wound channels) through the lungs and the elk were down where they stood?

I realize it's different strokes for different folks, but food for thought in how we characterize expansion vs fragmentation.

 

[Short Track]

180 yards. 168 Barnes .308 TTSX Elk absorbed 4 shots to the boiler room before dropping. He walked maybe 10 feet during the 4 shots, and turned around after 2 shots. so 2 from the right, 2 from the left. He never ran, luckily, as I'm sure he was in shock after shot #1.

 

[JBahr]

This is my only mono experience. I would not call this a failure, 3 shots all hits, 2 dead elk. But certainly information to learn from... I have similar learning experiences with match type bullets, eldms and bergers...

Even with close range impact impacts to vitals and bone performance was not as advertised... "The CX™ (Copper alloy eXpanding) bullet from Hornady represents the most advanced monolithic hunting bullet on the market. Its optimized design offers extended range performance, greater accuracy, high weight retention, and deep penetration."

Had I not made the follow up shot to the 2nd elk, I'm not sure we would have found her. There was no visibly trackable blood on the ground and very little on the exit wound, none on the entrance wound from the first impact through the midsection. Additionally a lack of internal bleeding upon field dressing. My escorts said this has been a common occurrence of lung only shot elk with monos the last two years of this program.



With monos, aim for bone or heart... With match bullets, aim for lungs, avoid bones...

 

[35WhelenAI]

Short Track and JBahr, thanks for your informative posts. Really appreciate the details. The CX looks a bit knackered esp. in the new pic above. Expansion of that bullet isn't what one would expect given the nature of Hornady's words describing performance.

On a tangent, I wonder what the "copper" metallurgy is compared to say, the Barnes bullets. Hornady says it's an upgrade from the GMX (gilding metal, thus the "GM", X for expanding if I read it right) but doesn't say much about the new CX composition other than the "C" is for copper.

In any case, elk aren't bullet proof and if one asks advice on a mono, Barnes or Hammer would be where I point them. Disclaimer, no field experience with the Hammer but reports suggest it doesn't leave one wanting. Barnes speaks for itself from my experience (stellar).

 

[Tahoenorth]

140 grain TTSX from 280 AI 500 yards or less all day

 

[WeiserBucks]

Berger that broke two bull elk shoulders and found under the skin on the far side, +/- 300 yards. Dead almost instantly.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Another bull taken with Bergers, double lung shot about 300 yards. Bull walked about a 10' circle twice and fell down dead.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Shot once at 640, double lung w/ same load as above. After the shot he walked about 40 yards into the brush and we found him dead about 20 yards from where we lost sight of him.

 

[WeiserBucks]

More of the same, Berger and a dead bull. One at 300ish, broke both shoulders and dead in seconds.

 

[BigNate]

He mentions energy while rambling on comparing the 6.5 manbun and the. 308, and again later eluding to enegy being a measure of effectiveness.

The bullet needs to arrive with enough velocity to make it function, regardless of how much "energy" it retains.

I couldn't be a writer. I have trouble spelling, type with two fingers, and although I know what I was thinking, by the time my fingers finally get around to that thought my brain is off on the next.

Here's the link I was referring to.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/why-bullet-design-is-more-important-than-cartridge-choice/

 

[sneaky]

Maybe, but I seem to witness "more will to live" with monos than any other bullet.

I don't know about the wound channel. We loaded it whole, and I went hunting. I did ask him about it later, and he said it wasn't as messy as the bullets we usually use. So I guess that's a plus.

I need to start doing @Formidilosus level autopsies. LOL

It helps with monos to just put them through the shoulders. Without fragmentation problems it doesn't ruin meat, and they can't run off when you take their wheels out. Learned not to put monos through the lungs the hard way

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Bolt]

Every elk I have shot has been bullet proof! In that order too!
Bullet enters proof and I have a dead elk.
Sorry I know it's corny but thats the first thing that entered my head when I saw this.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[f16jack]

I've taken a number of elk (16) with Noslers and Bergers.


Every shot was into the heart lung region. I didn't hit a quarter or spine or guts with any of the shots above.

It's pretty clear from my emperical field data that I want the green bullets and results, not the yellow ones.
All the Berger's need to function is 1800 fps. Couple in proper shot placement and you have a dead elk.

The elk that took two shots from the Bergers simply hadn't fallen over yet. My rule of thumb is if they are still standing you put another bullet into them. No need for tracking wounded animals.

 

[35WhelenAI]

That's good success f16jack, congrats on the hunts. I have 14 elk and 16 shots. 13 elk with the Whelen AI, one with the 300 Win Mag. The ones that took more than one shot were a 250 grain Barnes X from my 35 Whelen AI, needed a finisher at closer range and one with a Hornady 250 Spire point finished with a 44 Mag at close range. 12 taken with Barnes Mono's, 2 taken with Hornady Spire points. Ranges from 341 yards down to 80 yards. None went more than 30 yards, most dropped or went less than 30 yards. As Colorado has combined deer/elk season, 8 mule deer have dropped with one shot from same assortment of Barnes monos. No tracking. Overall, I've been blessed to have hunts end like they have.

 

[f16jack]

That's good success f16jack, congrats on the hunts. I have 14 elk and 16 shots. 13 elk with the Whelen AI, one with the 300 Win Mag. The ones that took more than one shot were a 250 grain Barnes X from my 35 Whelen AI, needed a finisher at closer range and one with a Hornady 250 Spire point finished with a 44 Mag at close range. 12 taken with Barnes Mono's, 2 taken with Hornady Spire points. Ranges from 341 yards down to 80 yards. None went more than 30 yards, most dropped or went less than 30 yards. As Colorado has combined deer/elk season, 8 mule deer have dropped with one shot from same assortment of Barnes monos. No tracking. Overall, I've been blessed to have hunts end like they have.

Congrats on your sucess. Your bullets have worked well for you. I'm sure that you are like me, where I'm surprised if the animal doesn't drop on the 1st shot.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Congrats on your sucess. Your bullets have worked well for you. I'm sure that you are like me, where I'm surprised if the animal doesn't drop on the 1st shot.

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, 13 of those elk were with the 35 Whelen AI. Using frontal area of a 2x diameter expanded bullet as a comparison (A=Pi x radius^2), it has 35% more frontal area than a .308 expanding to 2x diameter and 59% more than a 7mm projectile expanded to 2x diameter. The difference becomes more with a drop down in caliber. I have recovered (2) .358 Barnes mono's, both expanded to a bit more than double diameter across the petals. CNS function is disrupted as the bullet expands and travels through the animal. If a larger frontal diameter controlled expansion bullet causes disruption through the same principle of CNS disruption as a smaller caliber fast expanding bullet does, that could well be part of my positive experience with bullets that typically don't get credit for dropping animals quickly.