Changing arrows/Point weight

[wibowhntr]

I am in the process of planning an Idaho elk hunt in September, and one of the last things I need to prepare (other than my conditioning) is my Bow/Arrow setup. I am used to shooting at targets and whitetails, but have some questions about arrow/point weight. My former archery shop (no longer trust their "knowledge") set up my bow and arrows, and assured me that my setup was "perfect". I had been shooting mechanicals for the last 8 years, but decided to make a switch to fixed blades this year. I tried switching to Slick Trick Vipers, but could not get them to group well. After spending hours at the range paper tuning, with the owner's assistance, I gave up, went back to mechanicals, and hunted the season without feeling confident in my setup and passing on each deer I saw. My setup is as follows:
2013 Mission Ballistic-28 in draw, 65 lbs
Carbon Express Maxima Blu RZ 350 spine, Blazer Vanes, Carbon Express Launchpad Nocks, Bulldog Collar, 11 grain inserts, 100 grain tips. Arrow weight is 386 gr. From what I see on the OT2 software trial that I downloaded, this arrow is over-spined.

My thoughts on the setup I would like to use going forward:

1) Replace the 100 grain tips on my existing arrows with 175 grain VPA 2-blades, but leave everything else the same. This would bring the FOC to 18.33%, KE to 67.17, and total arrow weight to 461 gr.

2) Switch to 340 spine Easton 5mm FMJ, HIT insert, 175 gr VPA 2-blades. Arrow weight would be around 547 gr, FOC of 18.16%, KE of 67.49.

3) Switch to 295 spine Easton 5mm FMJ, Brass HIT insert, 250 gr VPA 2-Blades. Arrow weight would be 672 gr, FOC of 21.44%, KE of 68.9.

I understand the speed of the heavier arrows is reduced, but that would not bother me too much, as I assume my bow would be much quieter. I would not be using the heavier arrows as an excuse for taking a shot that is less than optimal, but as a cushion in case something were to happen.

I have been tossing around a lot of ideas on this subject, and would like the input of some experienced western hunters.

Thanks

 

[elkyinzer]

My personal recommendation...I'd go with an arrow around 10 gpi like the FMJ and a 125 grain fixed head, keeping your arrow somewhere in the mid 400's. Good middle ground with adequate FOC but still enough speed your arrow won't be dropping 3 feet at 40 yards. Most importantly keep working on tuning your bow maybe reach out to some "experts" in your area. If your broadheads flat out are not grouping, spin test the arrows to make sure it is indeed the bow and not poorly built arrows.

 

[5MilesBack]

Out of those choices I'd go with option 1. But I also wouldn't hesitate to just use 125's or 150's on your current setup. Even over-spined you should be able to tune it fairly well.

 

[PMcGee]

If you keep your original arrows I'd just add some weight behind your insert and shoot a 125 gr tip. More options to shoot that way then with 175 gr BH. Unless you're dead set on that head.
I wouldn't worry to much about being over spined. I shot a stiffer arrow then you are out of my Z7 and my arrows flew great.

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[Pramo]

Of your options I'd pick number 2 but instead of FMJ do 340 Easton axis with 50 or 75 grain brass insert and a 100 grain head. I prefer heavy inserts to real heavy broadhead just for ease of buying other heads.

 

[id450]

Not sure if your aware? Mechanicals are illegal in Idaho. Slick tricks are awesome.
Try a walk back and nock tune. What's your draw length and draw weight? I hit with 90lbs of Kenetic energy with a 452grain gold tip velocity at 64 Lbs draw weight and 30 inch draw. That plenty of power, momentum and stability in the air with blazers.

If you don't have the draw length don't worry about it. Shoot for an arrow north of 380 grains, a FOC of 10-15 % , don't over sweat that. The big thing is build a arrow as heavy as u can but make sure you are shooting at 280-290 fps. There's really no need to go faster then that IMO.


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[Dameon]

Option 1.

I would begin by examining your grip, your anchor point, and your draw length. If you grip is not good or consistent, you will have poor groupings. Same with your anchor point. Same with your draw length. Now check your cam timing on a draw board. Your bow is a dual cam binary with a floating yoke, the stops should be hitting at the same time at full draw.

Once those are checked out, then I would examine your arrows. Being over spined is not necessarily a bad thing and I actually aim to be a bit over spined for fixed blade broadheads. Weigh and spin test your arrows to make sure they are all in spec. Mark any that are out of spec and relegate them to practice arrows only. Find a nice 125 grain or 150 grain broadhead that appeals to you and get matching weight field points. Strip the fletching off one good arrow and put on a field point. Take two other good arrows and put a field point on one and a broadhead on the other. Now it is time to check your tune.

Just make sure that your form is good before you do this. First, set up a foam block target at shoulder height and mark a perfectly vertical line right down the center. Tape, a piece of string with a plumb bomb, or a permanent marker will do. Now at 6 feet, shoot your fletched field point arrow directly on that line. Make adjustments to your sight windage until you are hitting that line perfectly. Now back up to 10 feet, shoot the fletched field point at that line and the bare shaft with field point at that line, but not the same point on that line. Did they both hit the line? If not, make windage adjustments to your rest so that both arrows are hitting that line. Now mark a single point on your target at shoulder level and move back to 10 yards. Shoot the fletched field point and the bare shaft field point at this single point. Are they both hitting that point? If the bare shaft is hitting higher or lower, make very small elevation adjustments to your rest (this assumes you started at nock level). If you need to make a windage adjustment, it will be extremely small. If they are hitting far apart, then you are likely torquing your grip. Stop torquing your grip and repeat until both arrows hit their mark. Once done, back up to 20 yards. Shoot the broadhead, bare shaft with field point, and fletched with field point at the mark you previously made. They should now all be hitting that mark. If not, adjust your rest with almost imperceptible adjustments and repeat shots at 20 yards until all three arrows are hitting their mark. Now this last step is the most important, now carefully put the bow away and go to the fridge. Open your favorite beer and drink it. You are now done.

 

[Beendare]

My $.02

I think a lot of guys do as you did, continue shooting an arrow with poor arrow flight;

I tried switching to Slick Trick Vipers, but could not get them to group well. After spending hours at the range paper tuning, with the owner's assistance, I gave up, went back to mechanicals

Of course a 380 gr arrow with a cheap replace-able blade mech or fixed head will kill elk...but if you are talking ideal, here are some guidelines;

I don't think you will be happy with the 672 gr arrow...you really don't need that kind of weight

You want to be overspined a little...so you are on the right track there.

Don't setup your arrow with FOC as your primary criteria; I've tried arrows with a huge amount of FOC 26%+ and those start to tip the apple cart that is good tuning/arrow flight...it makes the arrow more critical in your bow with all that weight up front....where normal FOC ranges make the arrow less critical [8%-16% ish] Easton has been making arrows for decades and this is their recommendation.
Who should you listen to, Easton or a backyard/internet expert?

I think most guys are best served with an arrow in the 450-550 gr range...its a good balance of speed, quiet, easy to tune, etc.

Last; with all of the good strong BH's out there, why would you want to use a thin replaceable blade head like the slick trick?

 

[wibowhntr]

Thanks for all the responses! I think I am going to be sticking with my arrows, but replacing the heads and tuning my bow. Dameon, thank you for the detailed description of this tuning method, it is much easier to understand it this way. On the broadhead side, hunting whitetail in Wisconsin, the slick tricks were recommended to me by a number of people, but for the hunt this fall, there is no way I would go out with such a thin bladed head. I am having a hard time deciding on what head to choose, but I would like a strong 2-blade that I can sharpen myself. As mentioned, VPA heads have crossed my mind, as have abowyer and steel force. I want a "non-vented" broadhead, as I don't like how loud the "vented" heads were.

Thanks again for all the help, and I look forward to the spring when I can get back outside shooting

 

[PMcGee]

Thanks for all the responses! I think I am going to be sticking with my arrows, but replacing the heads and tuning my bow. Dameon, thank you for the detailed description of this tuning method, it is much easier to understand it this way. On the broadhead side, hunting whitetail in Wisconsin, the slick tricks were recommended to me by a number of people, but for the hunt this fall, there is no way I would go out with such a thin bladed head. I am having a hard time deciding on what head to choose, but I would like a strong 2-blade that I can sharpen myself. As mentioned, VPA heads have crossed my mind, as have abowyer and steel force. I want a "non-vented" broadhead, as I don't like how loud the "vented" heads were.

Thanks again for all the help, and I look forward to the spring when I can get back outside shooting

Slick tricks will work just fine on elk. Plenty of elk have been killed with them.


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[Beendare]

Slick tricks will work just fine on elk. Plenty of elk have been killed with them.

^^True.

Gary gave me some heads that I never used. We used to go around and around on BH design in his early days. Then when he died suddenly, I decided to use them on my 2013 elk hunt.



Sure they work.....then I was reminded after pulling this arrow out of the bull........this gives you an idea of the quality of these heads. I work too hard for a shot to use a crummy head.

 

[PMcGee]

^^True.

Gary gave me some heads that I never used. We used to go around and around on BH design in his early days. Then when he died suddenly, I decided to use them on my 2013 elk hunt.

View attachment 45209

Sure they work.....then I was reminded after pulling this arrow out of the bull........this gives you an idea of the quality of these heads. I work too hard for a shot to use a crummy head.

What did it hit that you had to pull it from? You can take any head on the market and somebody will show a picture of a failure. I still have confidence in them. Looks like you use a crummy arrow as well?


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[mfllood3800]

I think you are on the right path to go a bit heavier. I'm switching from a 395 set up to a 488. My speeds will remain right at 300. Formerly I was 330.
Going to a 11.0 grains per inch set up from a previous 8.6. Also switching to a 125 gr BH from a 100.

All that to say I will have more KE and an arrow that requires more force to stop it, while keeping good speed for those pesky string jumping desert muleys.

I just cut my shafts, fletched and installed outserts on my new set up, and will sight them in tomorrow.

Just got tired of failed tuning a fixed BH and a 330 speed set up.

Don't get me wrong I have 4 elk thru and thrus with this, but just want the peace of mind a bit heavier arrow with a good foc and decent speed will bring.

my new set up :

Black eagle 300 spine deep impact shafts cut to 26.5"
40 gr outsert
blazer 2" x3
Montec or Nap kill zone 125gr
micro nock

bow is a PSE Full Throttle 372 fps IBO
16 gr on the string
28" draw
70 lbs