Clickers. . 7 SAUM . . Im confused

[T_Widdy]

2nd firing on this brass

I just measured a few, looks like .002"-.003" sized to fired.

Ive always wondered if the shell plate on an RL550B was taller than a RCBS single stage shell holder. Not allowing the brass to go into the sizing die fully. But there's no issue getting the brass far enough into the Whidden die to bump the shoulder back .002"-.003" like they recommend.

**It's probably worth mentioning, I didnt get clickers on first firings of virgin brass. Both with ADG and the Bertram.

What’s your measurement with a micrometer not a caliper right here before and after sizing

 

[Mike D Texas]

If your virgin loads didn't have clickers, and also after looking at your pictures, it's highly likely that your sizing die and chamber at the 0.200 line are not correctly dimensioned to prevent clickers with the brass you're using.

Saum and other fat bodies cases are notorious for it because they're harder to size that 0.200 line on the case and get adequate clearance in the chamber to prevent a clicker.

Alex Wheeler has said that whidden's dies, even when custom made, may not size the base enough to prevent it. At least that is the case with prc.

Your solution would either be to open up the 0.200 area in your chamber by some small amount, maybe a thou or two, or have a different die made based on an accurately measured chamber casting or just by making sure the die maker will make that 0.200 area of the die about 0.002 smaller than the virgin case, or by trying Erik Cortina's expander die.

EC's expander die can be bought without a mandrel for $65 and be used to size the base of the case more to prevent clickers. It's an extra step, but should work. If it doesn't work, just sell the die. It's the easiest solution and one that wouldn't cost you much if it doesn't work.

Will Cortina make custom sizers? I shoot almost no SAAMI cartridges.


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[HighUintas]

Will Cortina make custom sizers? I shoot almost no SAAMI cartridges.


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Yes. There's an option for that in his die selection drop down now. They're pretty pricey at $475, 1 bushing included. But if it's a simple wildcat like necking up/down it might work with the right size bushing and those are cheaper

 

[Castle Rock]

All this talking about dies is nonsense it won’t fix the issue because the problem is clickers which happens after firing
There really is only one fix and that is enlarging the back of the chamber a couple of thou

 

[Harvey_NW]

All this talking about dies is nonsense it won’t fix the issue because the problem is clickers which happens after firing
There really is only one fix and that is enlarging the back of the chamber a couple of thou

Not necessarily, in some cases a small base, collet, or precision die will fix the issue. Opening up the back end of the chamber is doing the same thing as sizing the base of the case down smaller. I think the ADG guys mentioned somewhere around .005" clearance in that area in the S2H podcast, but certain brass manufacturers and SAAMI specs interfere and only leave .002/3" - clickers.

 

[HighUintas]

Not necessarily, in some cases a small base, collet, or precision die will fix the issue. Opening up the back end of the chamber is doing the same thing as sizing the base of the case down smaller. I think the ADG guys mentioned somewhere around .005" clearance in that area in the S2H podcast, but certain brass manufacturers and SAAMI specs interfere and only leave .002/3" - clickers.

That was a great interview with a ton of good information shared by the adg guys. Definitely worth listening to

 

[rootacres]

Not necessarily, in some cases a small base, collet, or precision die will fix the issue. Opening up the back end of the chamber is doing the same thing as sizing the base of the case down smaller. I think the ADG guys mentioned somewhere around .005" clearance in that area in the S2H podcast, but certain brass manufacturers and SAAMI specs interfere and only leave .002/3" - clickers.

I ordered the Cortina expander mandrel die, that is supposed to help with sizing the case head down further. But to your point. Measuring my current resized brass compared to my fired clicker brass there is .002"-.003" difference. I am hopeful a polished chamber and the die solves my problem. Sending a barrel off to a smith is a pain in the ass where I live.

 

[doverpack12]

I didn’t realize Cortina made a mandrel die for your cartridge or I would have said it sooner.
His die fixed my 300 WSM sizing issue at the 0.2 line area and my father in laws 270 WSM.

 

[wind gypsy]

with those Cortina mandrel dies, doesn't squeezing the base down move anything further up the brass?

 

[HighUintas]

with those Cortina mandrel dies, doesn't squeezing the base down move anything further up the brass?

With mine, it did increase the base to shoulder datum measurement by about 0.001 on cases that had reached max size. I think if it's used every reload cycle it won't increase length much at all. Also, there's no need to account for that if using before the FL sizing step

 

[ddowning]

Yep, most commonly seen with actions that lack primary extraction, like a badly timed Remington, doesn’t occur in something like a Mauser

Edit: This was supposed to say NOT caused by primary extraction. I didn't proofread and somehow missed getting the word not in there.

The click is NOT caused by the primary extraction. Actions with no primary extraction, you can lift the bolt all the way with no click. You then have to figure out how to get the bolt to move rearward since the case is still stuck in the chamber.

 

[doverpack12]

with those Cortina mandrel dies, doesn't squeezing the base down move anything further up the brass?

I just use if first before my FL bushing die. Cortina die hits the base and FL die hits everything else without pushing the base back out since it’s a close fit at base of the FL die on mine just didn’t quite squeeze enough.

To me there is less risk than a Lee collet neck mandrel die that relies on the shoulder to size the neck. I’ve folded several shoulders inside the case and went back to FL bushing.

 

[ddowning]

Yeah no, I wholly disagree. Accuracy minded BR of all disciplines have completely moved away from that notion and guns are shooting smaller than ever.

Yes, tight only matters in throat and leade. We have found that the hotdog down a hallway or the old rat turd in a violin case approach is great. The accuracy is still there (usually better) and you can run the gun faster.

 

[ddowning]

Look up Alex Wheeler on his website or YouTube. He has a video explaining the various measurements to take to figure out how well or poor your sizing die fits your chamber. Brand or die quality means nothing in regards to how well it fits your chamber and both chambers are very likely different and need their own die.
No amount of shoulder bump will fix the issue.
Alex also has a video about checking brass shoulder setback and sizing with a stripped bolt. Do that as well.
I believe whidden can make you a custom die but you need to know where you are at first and what the problem dimension is. Sometimes a different die can fix the issue

^^^^^this 1000%

 

[Castle Rock]

The click is caused by the primary extraction. Actions with no primary extraction, you can lift the bolt all the way with no click. You then have to figure out how to get the bolt to move rearward since the case is still stuck in the chamber.

You are wrong, if there is sufficient primary extraction the case has been pulled back enough to be released before the cam on the top of the bolt handle disengages the camming surface on the bridge of the receiver and therefore no “click”

 

[BBob]

The click is caused by the primary extraction. Actions with no primary extraction, you can lift the bolt all the way with no click. You then have to figure out how to get the bolt to move rearward since the case is still stuck in the chamber.

Say what???? This makes no sense. I mean if you really did have an action with zero primary extraction you'd get that but in reality how many actions have truly zero primary extraction? Yeah like near zero! Maybe the occasional Remington that someone FUBAR'd. Remington has made many with poor primary extraction but none I've ever seen with zero. People do claim this all the time but I've never seen an unmolested one from the factory that truly has zero.

Primary extraction or lack of does not cause the base clicker issue. Can it have an effect on it? Yes, but it's not the source of the issue.

 

[HighUintas]

You are wrong, if there is sufficient primary extraction the case has been pulled back enough to be released before the cam on the top of the bolt handle disengages the camming surface on the bridge of the receiver and therefore no “click”

My Tikka presents this problem as a sticky bolt lift rather than an actual clicker

 

[ddowning]

You are wrong, if there is sufficient primary extraction the case has been pulled back enough to be released before the cam on the top of the bolt handle disengages the camming surface on the bridge of the receiver and therefore no “click”

Edit to add: I just saw the typo in my previous post. It was supposed to say clickers are NOT caused by primary extraction. Either through auto correct or my own stupidity, the "not" is missing.

Pretty sure we are all saying the same thing. He has a clicker because his brass is still stuck until the very last part of the primary extraction cam. In guns that cycle smoothly, the primary extraction cam works very little or none at all to break the case loose from the chamber. If the case is still stuck in the chamber at the top of the bolt lift, it will not click. If the case is still stuck, the primary extraction cam doe not "disengage", as the angle is machined until the top of the bolt lift. You will then have to pull hard on the bolt handle or tap the case out with a cleaning rod. With "clickers" the case is stuck more than normal so you lift extra hard on the bolt handle. Once the case pops free (much later than normal) you get a click. Not sure if it is from the acceleration of the bolt lift and hitting the top of the stroke, or the case breaking free.

You are correct that clickers can be exacerbated by actions with too little primary extraction (you will get clickers when you wouldn't with correct primary extraction). In cases where their is no primary extraction i.e. the case is still stuck in the chamber at the top of the bolt lift, there is no click.

In any case, it appears the op is using a custom action, so it likely has pretty good primary extraction. His clickers are likely a result of poor match to sizing die and chamber. The die has a fat azz and the chamber is skinny when it should be the opposite. I have encountered this multiple times with factory and prefit barrels (not proof). The last time was with factory take-off savage 6.5 CM barrels. The .200 line was .002 smaller than the saami minimum after 3 firings and the die wouldn't touch it.