Elevation shims/mounts, need more MOA.

[35WhelenAI]

Mounted a VX3 HD 3.5-10 CDS ZL (1" tube) on my rifle today. "Upgrading" from a VX-II 3-9.

Set the scene: Bore sighted it, and there's not enough elevation adjustment in order to leave one full turn available to dial the turret.

I am working under my own assumption that one full turn on the turret without taking it to full stop (at the mechanical limit of the scope) is the desired adjustment range on a hunting rifle that could be used to reach out to 500 or 600 yards.

I never paid attention to how much elevation I used on the old scope, however when I checked it today for comparison, it only had a half turn remaining till full stop on up elevation.

So, this is not an issue with the scope, it is inherent with my rifle that I've never had to deal with or been aware of.

First: The gun is built on a Mauser 98 action, and necessitates a one piece mount (2 screws up front, one in the rear). It has a Redfield one piece mount and Leupold low rings. My thought is shimming the scope in the rear ring would be a no-no (uneven pressure on scope tube) even buy a small amount, but wanting to ask. I think more about a thin shim under the rear of the base, wanted to ask if that is an option for a DIY solution.

Second: I've looked at 20 MOA bases, however don't see one that has two mounting holes up front and one in the rear like the current Redfield base on the rifle. I like the simplicity, reliability and look of the of current Redfield base/ Leupold rings, but I don't know where to get a similar set up with 20 MOA built in. Or maybe there is not a similar system of 20 MOA built in and I'll need to go a different way.

Any help in speeding up my learning curve and knowledge curve on this is much appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

 

[realunlucky]

Looks like a couple companies (egw, nightforce) make a 20mos 98 rail. The 3 hole appears to be the standard pattern for 98s but egw makes a non drilled model also.

Did you count all the rotations from stop to stop and then count half way back to set your reticle in the center before you started?

Also different scopes have different amount of turret rotation so a single turn could be different depending on model

 

[35WhelenAI]

Thanks for that, that has two holes on the rear. Here's what I have and what I'm trying to duplicate.

Midway says the one you referenced is discontinued, but it does show up on the Night Force website.

 

[realunlucky]

View attachment 363286Thanks for that, that has two holes on the rear. Here's what I have and what I'm trying to duplicate.

Interesting these show the two mounting holes towards the front

Evolution Gun Works Picatinny Scope Mount, Mauser 98 - Large Ring https://www.opticsplanet.com/egw-mauser-98-picatinny-rail-scope-mount-large-ring.html

They did have 8 different choices to choose from though.

 

[35WhelenAI]

My apologies, I didn't take a look at the EGW, only the picture of the Nightforce.

EGW looks promising.

I sent an email to Leupold to see if they have anything as well.

And correct, I centered the scope elevation wise and made adjustments from there.

The Leupold has what I count as about 60 clicks per rotation so roughly 15 MOA of adjustment per turn. I've read that's what Leupold says as well from searching the 'net.

I only had half a turn of the elevation adjustment remaining with the current VX-II (never checked it because that was a set it and forget it scope, discovered it after I ran into this issue today) that was on the rifle so it makes sense in terms of the new VX3 HD being in the same boat.

 

[rayporter]

i am a big fan of burris signature rings. you can use the inserts to center the cross hair without moving the turrets.

they wont mark your scope and it wont slip.

the base you have could stay on the rifle.

 

[Wapiti1]

I agree. Burris signature rings. You can get 0, 10 and 20 MOA with them by mixing and matching inserts. Easy solution as Ray suggests. No need to change the base.

Jeremy

 

[BRTreedogs]

I've never seen the Burris rings.
And id probably choose a rail.
But whatever you do, make sure to do it the correct way. And suggest not shiming it.
Even if it cost money and you do not like the looks.
I have seen a notable difference in how repeatable and precise things are when using quality mounts and rings.

It really took alot for me to jump from $35 Weaver rings to $120 ish rings but now that I have it is notable.

 

[rayporter]

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=Awrhdj7pONNhKIMQD6s0nIlQ;_ylu=c2VjA3NyBHNsawN2aWQEdnRpZAMEZ3BvcwM5?p=burris+signature+rings+video&vid=3bc1cd7e0e10094b32939972ee3d7ff9&turl=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOVP.1qgShk37sgjLVzgdiMV1bwHgFo%26pid%3DApi%26h%3D360%26w%3D480%26c%3D7%26rs%3D1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwcRAX5OLtJE&tit=The+%3Cb%3EBurris%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3ESignature%3C%2Fb%3E+Ring+Mounting+System&c=8&h=360&w=480&l=531&sigr=rhMP4_Aj43d9&sigt=3Swm2N5.v11x&sigi=aRh.nhFN_I_K&age=1266345944&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&hsimp=yhs-imageadvan_004&hspart=imageadvan&type=175_bc006_etm&tt=b

 

[35WhelenAI]

I agree. Burris signature rings. You can get 0, 10 and 20 MOA with them by mixing and matching inserts. Easy solution as Ray suggests. No need to change the base.

Jeremy

I like this idea. With the mix and match to get 20 MOA, it's not going to create scope tube stress because the inserts create a "true" and straight path for the scope in the rings despite the slight angle of the tube in the rings.

 

[Seeknelk]

The Burris sig rings are proven and good to go. They really work well. I'd try that route althought I do love a good rail and seekins rings.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Thanks guys, got some Burris 1" dovetail rings coming and 20 MOA set of inserts.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Mounted and boresighted the Burris rings and 20MOA inserts. There are almost 2 full turns of elevation adjustment now remaining, vs 1/2 turn remaining with the previous rings. Mission accomplished.

Question: I set it up with the +20 underneath at the rear, and the -20 on top. Any thoughts or reason to consider the -20 under at the front and the +20 on top in front? My logic (but what is that worth, lol?) says a -20 under the front would give more effect (with the standard insert at the rear) vs a standard up front and the +20 under the rear. I have the adjustment needed now, just wondering if there is any reason to consider -20 under up front with standard in the rear now that I've thought about it.

 

[Jasent]

You could try the -20 up front and see how it works with your scope

Fwiw I’ve shimmed many bases. Once I’ve determined I have what I’m wanting I bed the base. Has worked well for me.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Bedding the base... Speculating on what I visualize as the process. Do you put the shim on, bedding compound over it, attach the base so it snugs down to basically the thickness of the shim and let it set up? What material do you use for your shim? Piece of soda can, beer can, etc?

I have enough clearance at the objective that I could put the thinner shim upfront vs thicker in the rear. Probably leave it as it is unless something doesn't dial in like I expect and I'm short on elevation.

 

[Jasent]

Bedding the base... Speculating on what I visualize as the process. Do you put the shim on, bedding compound over it, attach the base so it snugs down to basically the thickness of the shim and let it set up? What material do you use for your shim? Piece of soda can, beer can, etc?

I have enough clearance at the objective that I could put the thinner shim upfront vs thicker in the rear. Probably leave it as it is unless something doesn't dial in like I expect and I'm short on elevation.

Yes that’s how I do it. Just lightly snug it down till bedding sets up. Then torque as normal. I use flashing but soda or beer can works too

.0029” of shim per inch of base is 10 Moa
So if your base is 6” long it’s .0029x6=.0174 shim for 10 moa
Shim gets placed only at the rear

Hope this makes sense

 

[35WhelenAI]

Absolutely makes sense, well described and thanks for doing the math!

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Been down this road more than once with products from a company with a raved about warranty.

Assuming you know how to install the scope properly per optic, base and rings manufactures’ instructions AND there isn’t the same issue with another scope on it…

The scope is your issue. Exchange it for a new one and try again. It’s BS to have to use a <insert number of your choice>-MOA “band aid” for a product to have enough elevation to set a zero at 100-200 yards.

 

[Jasent]

Been down this road more than once with products from a company with a raved about warranty.

Assuming you know how to install the scope properly per optic, base and rings manufactures’ instructions AND there isn’t the same issue with another scope on it…

The scope is your issue. Exchange it for a new one and try again. It’s BS to have to use a <insert number of your choice>-MOA “band aid” for a product to have enough elevation to set a zero at 100-200 yards.

That’s not the issue he’s having from what I’m reading. He just doesn’t have the desired elevation range he wants after getting zeroed.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

That’s not the issue he’s having from what I’m reading. He just doesn’t have the desired elevation range he wants after getting zeroed.

100% correct on your side and 100% brain fart on my side.