Groupings Question?

[Fowl Play]

Alright, have been mostly a bow/shotgun hunter… total noob to dialing and trying to extend my range — as it’s difficult to find a range longer than 150 yards anywhere near me. Finally got access to a piece of property where I can shoot out to 400 yards and have begun practicing . Wish I took more pictures, but here is an example of a 4 shot group from 300 yards. Any ideas why I’d be getting two slightly independent groupings like this? This was not an isolated thing. Happened with all my groups I did up to 6-8 shot groups … there’d be two slightly “independent groupings ” roughly an inch a part. Is this from me torquing the gun or ? Just wondering what I should do differently next range day. Wish I had taken pictures of the 8 shot groups as it was more pronounced. Just seems weird that it’s not random, and obviously repeatable… just in two different locations.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Post up a photo of 8-10 shots aimed at the same target. Will give us an idea of your shooting abilities. 4 shots like this doesn’t tell us anything, other than it looks like you need to make a .1 or .2 MIL adjustment to the left.

 

[Fowl Play]

Post up a photo of 8-10 shots aimed at the same target. Will give us an idea of your shooting abilities. 4 shots like this doesn’t tell us anything, other than it looks like you need to make a .1 or .2 MIL adjustment to the left.

Definitely. And next time I will, was honesty not planning on sharing any of these, but then was not able to find the answer to my questions -- so asking it here. For a visual, my eight shot group had 5 shots that could have been covered with a half dollar. Then an inch a part another 3 shots basically cutting each other's hole. similar locations to the two groupings above... not sure why "fliers" would land in the same place though.

 

[WKR]

Factory ammo im assuming?

 

[Fowl Play]

Factory ammo im assuming?

Yes. 143 grain eldx. 6.5 I bought 1,000 rounds all from the same lot.... should hopefully last a while.

 

[WKR]

Yes. 143 grain eldx. 6.5 I bought 1,000 rounds all from the same lot.... should hopefully last a while.

I would shoot either three separate 4 shot groups or two separate 5 shot groups at the same point of aim, with time between the shot strings to let the barrel cool then look at data. It'll give you a better idea.

 

[sickles107]

I'll second the above, shoot a 10 round group. You may likely see that your two separate groups will turn into a 1moa ragged hole.

For reference, to start, listen to Hornady podcast "your groups are too small", or search "painless load dev" on here.

 

[SDHNTR]

The answer to your question is nothing more than random chance.

That’s why guys are suggesting you shoot groups that are statistically significant.

 

[hereinaz]

Could be more than random chance, but I agree it could be statistical anomalies.

You could be doing something small that makes the difference. Gotta start to work on hypothesis how you could figure out if it was you. But, it could very well be statistical aberrations.

Did you always shoot the low group them the high group?

Did you build and break your position during the groups?

Did you shoot two they went together and then shot the next ones?

Were both “groups” in a single group always vertically strung?

 

[Lawnboi]

What’s your zero group at 100 look like. Judging by the picture I’d say you’re in your rifles cone of fire and just looking at what those rounds decided they wanted to do.

Unless your rifle is an absolute hammer, on a hunting weight gun, I would pay no attention to that size of a group at 300 yards (looks sub 1.5”). I’d be more worried about getting that group center than what those shots mean.

 

[manitou1]

I have ONE rifle that does nearly exactly the same thing... even at 100 yds. It prints two seperate groups horizontally.
Many combinations of (handloaded) bullets, primers, powder, seating depth, etc.

It is a custom.

I finally gave up on trying to figure it out. I get two distinct groups every time I shoot groups.

It has killed everything I have pulled the trigger on, but it drives me nuts. None of my other rifles do this.

 

[hereinaz]

What’s your zero group at 100 look like. Judging by the picture I’d say you’re in your rifles cone of fire and just looking at what those rounds decided they wanted to do.

Unless your rifle is an absolute hammer, on a hunting weight gun, I would pay no attention to that size of a group at 300 yards (looks sub 1.5”). I’d be more worried about getting that group center than what those shots mean.

This is what I would do, practically it means dead critters, just get a better zero.

But, I am curious and it’s fun to critique and examine shooting for any reason. You likely won’t find why they are stringing, but you can really learn lots of other things.

 

[Fowl Play]

@sickles107 currently watching the Hornady "Your Groups are Too Small" podcast... very enlightening, thank you. Sounds like I need to truly get my sample size up like everyone is suggesting.

@hereinaz I always shot the low group, then the high group -- with adjusting my positions in between. Not sure why that would cause the impact shift though, next range day I'll see if this keeps happening with larger groups or if this was just a statistical anomaly

I thoroughly enjoyed prone shooting with a tripod and rear bag, more than I thought I would... already in tinker mode... want to add a vertical grip, raise the comb slightly, and reduce the trigger weight before next range day. I am solidly in the camp though of perfectly happy with these results (will adjust the zero after more shots), just working to get better.

 

[hereinaz]

@sickles107 currently watching the Hornady "Your Groups are Too Small" podcast... very enlightening, thank you. Sounds like I need to truly get my sample size up like everyone is suggesting.

@hereinaz I always shot the low group, then the high group -- with adjusting my positions in between. Not sure why that would cause the impact shift though, next range day I'll see if this keeps happening with larger groups or if this was just a statistical anomaly

I thoroughly enjoyed prone shooting with a tripod and rear bag, more than I thought I would... already in tinker mode... want to add a vertical grip, raise the comb slightly, and reduce the trigger weight before next range day. I am solidly in the camp though of perfectly happy with these results (will adjust the zero after more shots), just working to get better.

If you changed position. That could 100% cause what happened.

Test the hypothesis with this experiment.

Build your position, then break it by standing up, breaking down your gear, and then set it up and build it again to shoot once, build and break for a 20 shot group.

Shooters disbelieve that things like position, recoil, and many other factors can affect point of impact. The reality is that point of aim can be perfect, but point of impact will vary based on many factors.

It’s why if I shoot a group to tighten bench zero, I don’t move anything but my hand to cycle the bolt. And, I try to make it a perfect position.

From there, I test my “tripod” zero. I adjust to field position shooting if it is extreme.

 

[jpmulk]

I mean, I guess I’m no long ranger sniper, but an 1.5 group at 300. Sheesh. Id be happy.

 

[sickles107]

@sickles107 currently watching the Hornady "Your Groups are Too Small" podcast... very enlightening, thank you. Sounds like I need to truly get my sample size up like everyone is suggesting.

@hereinaz I always shot the low group, then the high group -- with adjusting my positions in between. Not sure why that would cause the impact shift though, next range day I'll see if this keeps happening with larger groups or if this was just a statistical anomaly

I thoroughly enjoyed prone shooting with a tripod and rear bag, more than I thought I would... already in tinker mode... want to add a vertical grip, raise the comb slightly, and reduce the trigger weight before next range day. I am solidly in the camp though of perfectly happy with these results (will adjust the zero after more shots), just working to get better.

It's a rabbit hole, but it's the truth. There is a ton of info on here revolving around this general topic.

You will save yourself a ton of time and money, as well as end up a much better shooter in the long run, if you stop trying to be a tiny group shooter, and focus on being a 2moa thing hitter, in field positions.

 

[wind gypsy]

Agreed that there is nothing to troubleshoot if one is getting a 1/2 moa group at 300 yards.

The build and break position before each shot deal can be an eye opener. For many it's a significant difference compared to shooting a group without breaking position.

 

[hereinaz]

Agreed that there is nothing to troubleshoot if one is getting a 1/2 moa group at 300 yards.

The build and break position before each shot deal can be an eye opener. For many it's a significant difference compared to shooting a group without breaking position.

Build and break is a humbler. I would say the majority of shooters would be very surprised. Groups are going to be huge, so a lot of shooters unconsciously avoid anything that opens up a group.

The quest for the tiny group on paper wastes time and money except when it is used to zero and dope a rifle, or to diagnose shooter skill. Here, the shooting is plenty good to go kill. But, as a diagnostic tool, it might reveal something.

But, that isn’t revealing anything that practicing all the skills won’t improve.

Build and break makes every shot closer to a “cold bore” shot, and people will see that the group looks like every bullet was a “flyer” they cover over with the nickle when they took the picture.

When you can build and break a position and then shoot a tiny group, that says something. That is the premise of Form’s practice over equipment thread.

This is one of many things that disabused me of the myth of the “cold bore” shot that wasn’t caused by a change in the bore condition by cleaning or oil in the barrel.

 

[NSI]

Two explanations, not mutually exclusive:
1) The cone of dispersion encompasses all of these shots. Shoot a 10 round group.
2) The position of your eye relative to the scope changed at some point in the string. This caused parallax error. Shoot a 10 round group without ever removing your cheek from the stock, as X-Ring's Ray teaches. Have a second or third mag loaded so you can continue firing from that stock weld.

-J