HAMMER Bullets Performance on Game

[TraderMike]

There was not an exit

How far would you estimate the deer went after the shot, in total?

 

[deerhunter628]

How far would you estimate the deer went after the shot, in total?

He probably went 75 yards

 

[wapitibob]

I've had Antelope go that far with no heart. If you want a bang flop, you need to take out the cns or their front end.

 

[deerhunter628]

I've had Antelope go that far with no heart. If you want a bang flop, you need to take out the cns or their front end.

I was not complaining about how far it went. I was answering a question

 

[35WhelenAI]

I've had Antelope go that far with no heart. If you want a bang flop, you need to take out the cns or their front end.

I can second that. Only had one contrary to that. My cow last year took a 200 TTSX (35 Whelen AI) on the knuckle of the upper leg bone at 255 yds, blew up the heart and out the opposite side upper leg knuckle. Gun went bang, front end went flop, and she snow plowed 25 yds forward with her front end on the ground. Not to take away from the hammer thread, elk are amazing creatures.

 

[deerhunter628]

I guess saying i was not happy with the terminal performance was the wrong thing to say. I was not happy with the lack of blood trail.

 

[TraderMike]

I guess saying i was not happy with the terminal performance was the wrong thing to say. I was not happy with the lack of blood trail.

Lack of blood trail is definitely interesting.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I understood what you were saying. Just interesting that a bullet the manufacturer says is designed to shed pedals to maintain internal velocity so a smaller diameter shank can create tremendous hydrostatic shock and exit, isn't doing that in more cases than I would expect. With the sample size of those bullets being relatively small versus other major manufacturers, it's interesting ballistic behavior.

 

[Marbles]

This isn’t correct. Lungs shots kill by a sucking chest wound causing lack of oxygen to the brain leading to passing out. That is a hole in the lungs does not mean death quickly, or at all actually. If only lungs are hit, then for the animal to die enough air must enter the plural space to collapse the lung(s). Up until a point, more damage equals faster time to incapacitation (dropping).
That point is a bit grey, and certainly depends on exactly what was hit and also the animals psychology, but mostly on how much those lungs are damaged. “Liquified” lungs absolutely cause the animal to pass out sooner than lungs with holes in them- lungs with holes can still work somewhat providing some level of oxygen. Once a certain level of damage is done however, they’re not functioning at all.

That level of damage is very rarely seen with monos. One or two, or even a few examples is not enough to make generalizations about it. The distance traveled, and time after pure lung shots is about twice with monos as with rapidly upsetting lead cored bullets. This is in seeing and logging hundreds of game animals with both personally, and thousands of animals with others doing the same and sharing the results.


Monos absolutely can kill well, and they absolutely take longer to do so.

I'm not really debating lead vs mono, just having fun with trauma. None of this contradicts your observations and it is really just in case you are interested, not because it contributes meaningfully to the discussion at hand.

To develop a sucking chest wound the hole in the chest wall must be about 66% or larger than the diameter of the trachea. Most entry wounds are not large enough, many exit wounds are. However, sucking chest wounds make breathing ineffective, but hypoxia from this would take several minutes to cause death. Same as hypoxia from simple loss of lung tissue (which would take a greater than 50% loss). The reason chest seals are vented is because most of the time a wound capable of causing a sucking chest wound also vents air back out preventing a tension pneumothorax.

Thoracic trauma (we will assume the heart and aorta are spared as this is a discussion on lungs) can cause death in a few ways. For rapid causes tension pneumothorax (possibly in the setting of tracheal rupture or bronchial rupture) and tension hemothorax (lungs are highly vascular, so hemorrhage is another possibility) come to mind. Most animals probably die from bilateral tension pneumothorax with a double lung shot. The more damage to the lung tissue itself, the faster air can accumulate in the thoracic cavity and the quicker obstructive shock develops from vena cava and cardiac compression. However, the majority of air that causes this likely passes through the trachea to enter the chest cavity.

The collapse of the lungs from the intrapleural pressure results in the undamaged lung becoming significantly smaller and adds to the impression that the lungs just turned to soup.

It is also important to note that there are flaws with trying to attribute death to one mechanism as they have cumulative effects. The loss of intravascular volume from hemorrhage results in earlier vena cava compression and onset of obstructive shock while the loss of lung tissue reduces physiologic reserve at a moment when the body is entering a hypermetabolic stress state and the increased respiratory effort to fuel that state speeds up tension pneumothorax development, Etc.

 

[grappling_hook]

Interesting, Marbles. It seems that there are at least five mechanisms potentially causing death from a shot-- CNS trauma, and then at least four mechanisms preventing oxygen from getting to the brain/organs, including directly from blood loss (blood pressure drop), suffocation/hypoxia (e.g. air can't pass fully into the lungs, or lungs are filled with blood/fluid), heart trauma ceasing blood to pump (separate from blood loss), and obstructive shock/trauma (blood is physically blocked from passing through, separate from blood loss or heart trauma). Am I understanding that right?

 

[Marbles]

Interesting, Marbles. It seems that there are at least five mechanisms potentially causing death from a shot-- CNS trauma, and then at least four mechanisms preventing oxygen from getting to the brain/organs, including directly from blood loss (blood pressure drop), suffocation/hypoxia (e.g. air can't pass fully into the lungs, or lungs are filled with blood/fluid), heart trauma ceasing blood to pump (separate from blood loss), and obstructive shock/trauma (blood is physically blocked from passing through, separate from blood loss or heart trauma). Am I understanding that right?

Yes.

Well, roughly, yes. I say roughly because one could add or consolidate categories depending on the desired level of detail.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Nice post, Marbles.

 

[Ucsdryder]

I used a 169 grain HH out of my 7mm rem mag this year.

Bang flop on a pronghorn buck at 300 yards Lungs were torn to shreds

Bang flop on a black bear at 50 yards
Lungs were torn to shreds

Shot a cow elk at 488 yards and didn't recover. I could blame it on the bullet but I would lay the blame on myself first.

Not hard to kill an antelope or a black bear. Both are pretty thin skinned. The only true test was the cow elk and you didn’t recover. Not a good record of success!

 

[35WhelenAI]

If you were going to lay the blame on yourself, for example, what did you do wrong that the bullet didn't allow the animal to be recovered?

 

[WKR]

Not hard to kill an antelope or a black bear. Both are pretty thin skinned. The only true test was the cow elk and you didn’t recover. Not a good record of success!

I'm not sure I would call a black bear thin skinned but I see your point.

 

[WKR]

If you were going to lay the blame on yourself, for example, what did you do wrong that the bullet didn't allow the animal to be recovered?

Its really hard to say without a recovery if it was my fault or the bullets but I could have done a few things different looking back.
It was a quartering to shot, I could have waited for a better shot angle. And I had a very small window to put another bullet in her but elected not to. She went down hard so I thought it was a done deal. Those were my mistakes.

 

[BAKPAKR]

I'm not really debating lead vs mono, just having fun with trauma. None of this contradicts your observations and it is really just in case you are interested, not because it contributes meaningfully to the discussion at hand.

To develop a sucking chest wound the hole in the chest wall must be about 66% or larger than the diameter of the trachea. Most entry wounds are not large enough, many exit wounds are. However, sucking chest wounds make breathing ineffective, but hypoxia from this would take several minutes to cause death. Same as hypoxia from simple loss of lung tissue (which would take a greater than 50% loss). The reason chest seals are vented is because most of the time a wound capable of causing a sucking chest wound also vents air back out preventing a tension pneumothorax.

Thoracic trauma (we will assume the heart and aorta are spared as this is a discussion on lungs) can cause death in a few ways. For rapid causes tension pneumothorax (possibly in the setting of tracheal rupture or bronchial rupture) and tension hemothorax (lungs are highly vascular, so hemorrhage is another possibility) come to mind. Most animals probably die from bilateral tension pneumothorax with a double lung shot. The more damage to the lung tissue itself, the faster air can accumulate in the thoracic cavity and the quicker obstructive shock develops from vena cava and cardiac compression. However, the majority of air that causes this likely passes through the trachea to enter the chest cavity.

The collapse of the lungs from the intrapleural pressure results in the undamaged lung becoming significantly smaller and adds to the impression that the lungs just turned to soup.

It is also important to note that there are flaws with trying to attribute death to one mechanism as they have cumulative effects. The loss of intravascular volume from hemorrhage results in earlier vena cava compression and onset of obstructive shock while the loss of lung tissue reduces physiologic reserve at a moment when the body is entering a hypermetabolic stress state and the increased respiratory effort to fuel that state speeds up tension pneumothorax development, Etc.

How about adding the “pressure” or “vacuum” of a close miss with a 50 BMG sucking the eyes out of a deer and killing it? I bet a Hammer bullet was used in this video.

(start at about 3:50)

 

[35WhelenAI]

Its really hard to say without a recovery if it was my fault or the bullets but I could have done a few things different looking back.
It was a quartering to shot, I could have waited for a better shot angle. And I had a very small window to put another bullet in her but elected not to. She went down hard so I thought it was a done deal. Those were my mistakes.

Hey man, we do the best we can in the moment. I think a quartering shot especially if it was a hard angle at that distance might be improved upon. But you know what? You dropped her on the spot, so chalk it up to one of those deals and use your gained knowledge the next time around.

I hit a cow dead broadside through the lungs at 80 yards with a 250 grain Hornady spire point from a 35 Whelen Ackley Improved, dropped on the spot kicking four legs in the air just as she made the timber. She righted herself in 2 ft of snow and gave me quite a tracking job. I shouldn't have switched to that bullet that year due to nostalgia and stuck with the Barnes, lol.

It happens to most anyone who hunts long enough and can be honest.

 

[gabenzeke]

I would have to classify 16” groups @ 100 yards as unable to be hunted with from the 22-250. The 280 ai was much better around 8” @ 100 yards. If your hunting with that level of accuracy so be it but I’m not.



Had to fly a little kid this evening with fractured femur and cigarette burns this evening. I guess my manners have left the building. No excuse though. I apologize

I'd like to have a meeting set up with whoever is responsible for hurting that kid.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Mule3006Elk]

My son harvested his doe with a 152 grain HH from a 30-06 going just shy of 3100 fps at the muzzle. Distance 303 yards. She jumped at impact then walked uphill 15-20 yards, then laid down, and never moved again. His shot was broadside (AKA meat saver shot) center mass. Complete pass through. Entry side shoulder meat 100% intact. Meat further back on the exit side was minimally bloodshot so we cut that out on site. Very good blood trail but this was open country and we knew exactly where she was at. Had he hit a few inches lower the blood trail wound have been profound. I separated the ribs to get the heart and the thoracic cavity was completely full of blood. I did not open the thoracic cavity to inspect the lungs.

I'm rethinking shot placement with monos. I've been shooting Barnes for 8 years. 18-19 animals thus far. With meat saver shots the animals most always run. Most in the 25-100 yard range. A few up to 25 yards. One pronghorn ran close to 200 yards with a perfect broadside side shot. We have had 2 DRT, one was meat saver shot but upper 1/3 and likely shocked the CNS, the other was a meat saver shot lower 1/3 but 3" forward towards the shoulder joint. This animal dropped on the spot and never moved.

I'm thinking of going straight up the center line of the front leg to center of mass. May lose some meat but a solid shot to the most dense part of the lungs. OR I'm thinking of going off the front line of the front leg then horizontal to the the shoulder joint. In this area lies the thoracic autonomic plexus and the great vessels.

I've also had great success with Edge TLR 175 grain. Only 3 animals, 2 DRT, one ran < 100 yards with a perfect meat saver shot and zero meat loss.

I will say Hammer bullets (152 grain HH) shoot lights out in my 30-06. Barnes 150 grain TTSX I average 0.75-1 MOA on a consistent basis at 100 yards on occasion I'll get 0.5-0.75 MOA. At 400 yards very consistently 1 MOA. Hammer held less than a 0.6" group at 424 yards. I've never grouped like that with Barnes at distance. Easiest bullet I've loaded for. I really want to love Hammer bullets but time will tell. One sample size thus far so I can't really draw any conclusions. Again with monos in general I'm going to rethink my shot placement.