If You're Wanting to Come Hunt in Montana.....

[Deadfall]

Meateater interviewed the author of this bill. Should look it up

 

[Sambone]

I wrote them all..
I oppose this nonsense!

Please write and call. We need to hammer them from all angles on this


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bighorner]

Deadfall,
I completely agree there is a place for outfitters. DIY is in vogue and it sells gear and books ect..., but what I don't favor is the straight up allocation. I would think a quality outfitter would be able to stay busy on clients who got their tags the same way everyone else did or on a landowner tag if that comes to pass. There are a lot of guys that are not going to have fun solo and they know it. They know they need a guy and will get one if they want a good chance at success. Grizzlies will only drive the desire to have an out fitter higher.

Maybe I'm missing it, but most of the outfits I know about are booking at least a year out.

 

[204guy]

I think everyone should take a breath and look at this as an opportunity to wok together for once.

Laughing (literally) this is like gun control. Give something up and call it compromise.

 

[hcaudle]

Has anyone considered the possibility that if it’s too hard for the existing guides to make a living with the uncertainty of the draw system, perhaps there are too many guides? Fewer guides and outfitters would mean those that draw and want to use a guide would still be able to find one, and the ones that are available would have plenty of customers. I know, I know, it may mean some couldn’t carry on their eleventeenth generation of the “family business.” Heaven forbid such an injustice.

 

[Deadfall]

Deadfall,
I completely agree there is a place for outfitters. DIY is in vogue and it sells gear and books ect..., but what I don't favor is the straight up allocation. I would think a quality outfitter would be able to stay busy on clients who got their tags the same way everyone else did or on a landowner tag if that comes to pass. There are a lot of guys that are not going to have fun solo and they know it. They know they need a guy and will get one if they want a good chance at success. Grizzlies will only drive the desire to have an out fitter higher.

Maybe I'm missing it, but most of the outfits I know about are booking at least a year out.

That's true. They are booking atleast a year out. When that year comes and the hunter doesn't draw then what. Theres a hole. It takes alot of planning for those hunts. Most are planned for a year or more. A guy don't draw then your trying to patch groups together. Everyone knows hunting with strangers is tricky business, so now you just compounded an already touchy thing. I guided a long time and seen lots of buddies show up to camp and leave not friends anymore.
So patching groups together can be real tough.

The 60 percent thing is absurd. There is definitely a middle ground or atleast opportunity for it. I'm also not for allowing non resident landowners to get thrown in the resident landowner tag pool.
40 percent is pretty typical what goes with an outfitter. Why not set that aside. Everyone over that goes to general draw.
Ellsworth fully expected to make amendments to this bill. That's a quote from the meateater interview.
At 40 percent, outfitters would still be in competition for business. Especially when economy is good and everyone is spending money. Like they have been last 3vyrs under trump

 

[Deadfall]

Laughing (literally) this is like gun control. Give something up and call it compromise.

Thats compromise. Ever been married?

 

[Deadfall]

Thats compromise. Ever been married?

Got kids?

 

[Bighorner]

I'll have to find that episode and give it a listen. Thanks man.

 

[hobbes]

I'm still opposed but here is a little bit of hope for you folks that believe your draw odds will go down.

First, I would want to see proof that 45% of NR hunters are already going with outfitters. If that truly is the case it stands to reason that 45% of the folks applying are already planning to go with an outfitter if they draw. I'll use round numbers here. If 20,000 folks apply for 17,000 licenses, your odds are 85%.


Assume that they split the tags 45% to outfitters (7,650) and 55% to diy (9,350). If 45% of the total applicants are already planning an outfitter(9000) and 55% are diy(11,000), your odds stay the same to draw. 9000 folks are after 7650 tags and 11000 diy folks apply for 9350 licenses. Your odds are still 85% because a big chunk of the 20,000 folks are now applying for the outfitter licenses.

As expected the 60% proposal was for shock value so they could drop back and act like they are being gracious. I would like to see proof that 45% is the real number but even then I think as time goes by the diy odds will fall off because more diy folks are applying for these tags. However, if outfitted folks applying increases at the same rate as diy, then everyone's odds are going down at the same rate. Also, with their line of reasoning that 45% are already outfitted, how in the heck does this bill reduce the number of hunters on BMA? They state that they really aren't changing anything but this will help crowding. How does that work? If they aren't really reducing diy opportunity they aren't changing crowding whatsoever.

 

[Flyjunky]

Thats compromise. Ever been married?

What are outfitters giving up in this deal? Compromise is predicated on both parties giving up something.

I watched the entire hearing today and what I saw from all of the proponents is this:

I've been a 2nd or 3rd generation outfitter, guiding is hard, I want to keep doing it, please help us, guarantee us some business....please.

Well, if you've been in business for generations it must be working. Most small businesses fail in the first 5 years.....welcome to the real world!

I own a small business and maybe I should start a bill to guarantee my business some customers.

What a crock of sh*t. Aren't these the same people who are disgusted at government handouts, subsidies, etc...yet, here they are.

 

[wind gypsy]

I'll have to find that episode and give it a listen. Thanks man.

I'm not sure there is an audio interview available, but they reference interviewing the sponsor in this article.

Montana Legislation Would Give Majority of Non-Resident Tags to Outfitted Hunters

Editor’s note: this article was amended on Feb. 4 following a hearing in committee. A new bill in the Montana legislature would guarantee up to 60% of all non-resident deer and elk tags to hunters sponsored by an outfitter. On Jan. 25 State Senator Jason Ellsworth of Hamilton introduced SB 143...

www.themeateater.com

 

[Deadfall]

What are outfitters giving up in this deal? Compromise is predicated on both parties giving up something.

I watched the entire hearing today and what I saw from all of the proponents is this:

I've been a 2nd or 3rd generation outfitter, guiding is hard, I want to keep doing it, please help us, guarantee us some business....please.

Well, if you've been in business for generations it must be working. Most small businesses fail in the first 5 years.....welcome to the real world!

I own a small business and maybe I should start a bill to guarantee my business some customers.

What a crock of sh*t. Aren't these the same people who are disgusted at government handouts, subsidies, etc...yet, here they are.

I own a business as well. My business isn't predicated on clients drawing tags. Why not set aside SOME tags. Outfitters can compete for those.

What they are giving up is, all clients drawing. They are amending the numbers as we speak. Outcitters still have to compete with each other for business. Same as I do in my business. Just like my work speaks for itself. So does theirs.

Setting aside tags for outfitters isn't a handout. Its giving them all something to compete for. Competition will only bread even more effort put in for their clients. Which are NR hunters. More revenue to the state. A increase in NR tags. Seems like a win. Once this thing gets retooled it'll be more fair. I dont support the bill in its current form. Bill will be different by the time it gets through the process. See what it looks like then.

Everyone going on about welfare thing. Noone sees the logistics of planning. Its like planning a diy hunt times 10. Then at last minute having to replace something that's been in the works for over a year. Some cases 2.

They aint asking for a handout. Just a bit of stability.
I will conceded some are looking for handouts. Those will weed themselves out. Same as others looking for handouts.

 

[Deadfall]

What are outfitters giving up in this deal? Compromise is predicated on both parties giving up something.

I watched the entire hearing today and what I saw from all of the proponents is this:

I've been a 2nd or 3rd generation outfitter, guiding is hard, I want to keep doing it, please help us, guarantee us some business....please.

Well, if you've been in business for generations it must be working. Most small businesses fail in the first 5 years.....welcome to the real world!

I own a small business and maybe I should start a bill to guarantee my business some customers.

What a crock of sh*t. Aren't these the same people who are disgusted at government handouts, subsidies, etc...yet, here they are.

And all the opponents say the sky is falling

 

[Erict]

I'm still opposed but here is a little bit of hope for you folks that believe your draw odds will go down.

First, I would want to see proof that 45% of NR hunters are already going with outfitters. If that truly is the case it stands to reason that 45% of the folks applying are already planning to go with an outfitter if they draw. I'll use round numbers here. If 20,000 folks apply for 17,000 licenses, your odds are 85%.


Assume that they split the tags 45% to outfitters (7,650) and 55% to diy (9,350). If 45% of the total applicants are already planning an outfitter(9000) and 55% are diy(11,000), your odds stay the same to draw. 9000 folks are after 7650 tags and 11000 diy folks apply for 9350 licenses. Your odds are still 85% because a big chunk of the 20,000 folks are now applying for the outfitter licenses.

I do not agree with your math.

If 45% (9000) apply for 7650 first come/first serve tags, then 1350 will not draw. It would be reasonable to expect some percentage of the non-draw to "reapply" for "DIY" tags, so up to 12,350 applicants for 11,000 tags, or as low as 76%. None of this takes preference points into consideration.

I still don't understand how they would handle deer/elk combo applications, special draw areas, preference points, is the tag only good for the 3-5 days one hunts with a guide, the $200 "fee" and a few other things. Seems like MOGA wants to get this thing passed and after they can iron out the details in "regulations" with Montant F&G.

Personally, the best idea I heard during the entire thing was to have Montana change their draw dates to be the earliest in the west, thereby allowing hunters and guides the most time to plan for that year's hunting.

 

[hobbes]

I may have just not noticed but did the proposed bill say that the outfitter tags would go on sale before the draw. It would be simple enough to make the draw deadline before the outfitter tags go on sale thereby preventing them for jumping into the regular draw. I agree with you though,move the app and draw dates earlier in the year and no outfitter guaranteed tags.

 

[Flyjunky]

I own a business as well. My business isn't predicated on clients drawing tags. Why not set aside SOME tags. Outfitters can compete for those.

What they are giving up is, all clients drawing. They are amending the numbers as we speak. Outcitters still have to compete with each other for business. Same as I do in my business. Just like my work speaks for itself. So does theirs.

Setting aside tags for outfitters isn't a handout. Its giving them all something to compete for. Competition will only bread even more effort put in for their clients. Which are NR hunters. More revenue to the state. A increase in NR tags. Seems like a win. Once this thing gets retooled it'll be more fair. I dont support the bill in its current form. Bill will be different by the time it gets through the process. See what it looks like then.

Everyone going on about welfare thing. Noone sees the logistics of planning. Its like planning a diy hunt times 10. Then at last minute having to replace something that's been in the works for over a year. Some cases 2.

They aint asking for a handout. Just a bit of stability.
I will conceded some are looking for handouts. Those will weed themselves out. Same as others looking for handouts.

Give me a break. Any business owner has to plan in advance, boo hoo. I had over a dozen high paying clients lined up for this past year, but covid ended those and I had to scramble, reschedule, find new clients, etc. Thats called being in business.

You still didn't answer my question, what are outfitters giving up in this "compromise" as you state it. You stated they are giving up all clients drawing...well, I'm giving up all the clients that don't use my business either. Basically what they want is for anyone who wants to book with them to have a guaranteed tag, at the expense of a NR Diy hunter....seems only one group is giving up anything, can't look at it any other way, sorry.

Setting aside tags for outfitters isn't a handout? How so? Seems like it's getting the laws changed to guarantee business to me, I don't know how you can even debate that.

More revenue to the state? By who's numbers, the numbers that are cherry picked by their "study". Other than paying for an outfitter please tell me who honestly spends more money in local businesses, a diy or guided hunter? Do guided hunters make any scouting trips to the state they are wanting to hunt with an outfitter? Do they shop for groceries, beer, dinner at restaurants, get gas multiple times?

Diy hunters plan just as much, maybe even more since they don't know where to camp, conditions, where hunters are, logistics, other hunters, etc...all those variable pretty much set for an outfitter.

You say they aren't looking for handouts and then a sentence later you say some of them are.....I will state this again, asking for guaranteed clients to stabilize a business is asking for a handout.

I'll leave it there.

Good luck in your business this year, I hope you do well!

 

[Flyjunky]

And all the opponents say the sky is falling

And all the proponents say the sky is falling if this doesn't pass, even though many who commented are 2nd and 3rd generation guides...so how did they stay in business this long?

 

[Deadfall]

Give me a break. Any business owner has to plan in advance, boo hoo. I had over a dozen high paying clients lined up for this past year, but covid ended those and I had to scramble, reschedule, find new clients, etc. Thats called being in business.

You still didn't answer my question, what are outfitters giving up in this "compromise" as you state it. You stated they are giving up all clients drawing...well, I'm giving up all the clients that don't use my business either. Basically what they want is for anyone who wants to book with them to have a guaranteed tag, at the expense of a NR Diy hunter....seems only one group is giving up anything, can't look at it any other way, sorry.

Setting aside tags for outfitters isn't a handout? How so? Seems like it's getting the laws changed to guarantee business to me, I don't know how you can even debate that.

More revenue to the state? By who's numbers, the numbers that are cherry picked by their "study". Other than paying for an outfitter please tell me who honestly spends more money in local businesses, a diy or guided hunter? Do guided hunters make any scouting trips to the state they are wanting to hunt with an outfitter? Do they shop for groceries, beer, dinner at restaurants, get gas multiple times?

Diy hunters plan just as much, maybe even more since they don't know where to camp, conditions, where hunters are, logistics, other hunters, etc...all those variable pretty much set for an outfitter.

You say they aren't looking for handouts and then a sentence later you say some of them are.....I will state this again, asking for guaranteed clients to stabilize a business is asking for a handout.

I'll leave it there.

Good luck in your business this year, I hope you do well!

Every group has people looking for handouts.
I did answer your question.
Unlike you I'm a diy guy that has seen first hand the outfitter side of this debate. I also hunt out of state..

As for my business, its been booming and only getting busier. Covid didn't slow me for half a second.

The hunters might not buy food. Its provided by the outfitter.

I'm not a outfitter, got no dg in this really. Just tired of all the lines in sand.

We best all open our minds and start working together. Instead of cussing and being obtuse.

 

[Flyjunky]

Every group has people looking for handouts.
I did answer your question.
Unlike you I'm a diy guy that has seen first hand the outfitter side of this debate. I also hunt out of state..

As for my business, its been booming and only getting busier. Covid didn't slow me for half a second.

The hunters might not buy food. Its provided by the outfitter.

I'm not a outfitter, got no dg in this really. Just tired of all the lines in sand.

We best all open our minds and start working together. Instead of cussing and being obtuse.

You don't know anything about me.

I've been a Diy'er all my life and don't plan to change that.

Ok, how about this. Let's do the draw early so guides know about tags. That's it, compromise like you suggest. No additional guaranteed tags, get the draw done early so not only do guides/clients know but I'd appreciate that as well.

It will make my choices in Nevada, Wyoming, Idaho, and Oregon easier to plan. Win/Win for everyone.