Kids rifle manifesto

[Goatie]

Friends who know my obsession with firearms often ask my opinion on the subject and I’ve always believed a cartridge like 6.5 Grendel in a suppressed AR platform is the perfect solution. Like the OP stated, low recoil is vital as is remedied with a “light” caliber such a suppressed 6.5 Grendel/6ARC etc can provide. I also think utilizing an AR can have multifaceted benefits with adjustability and fit, but also an illuminated reticle on its lowest magnification solves problems with aligning a hard to find reticle for inexperienced shooters. Third, an AR platform makes a lot of kids imaginations’ soar because most of them are playing first person shooting video games with similar looking guns. All of these details can start a person with as little apprehension with shooting and hunting as possible, while still having enough oomph to do the job effectively.

 

[Tahoe1305]

Did this this weekend for my 5 year old.

I shoot tikkas and got an amazing deal on a t1x. The point there is the components (except a few chassis options and mags) are interchangeable. The factory stocks aren’t bad and can be had used cheap.

For those wanting ultimate LOP control, don’t be afraid to take a saw to that $30 stock. I used a chop saw and it came out great. LOP is 11.5”. I have a compact stock on the shelf at 12.5” and regular is 13.5” ish so covered hopefully.

The pad I used is in the link below for $19. The holes lined up nearly perfect (maybe .1” off) and the studs for the holes on the stock go way back. Pictures show roughly how it worked. Disc grinder to finish.

When I want to work on CF rifles it’s just two bolts. Or when I want to use the t1x it’s two bolts and a full size stock and maybe a pict rail scope change.

Excited to try it out. Only downside I see is t1x is made to be “close” to identical to t3x which includes weight. It’s a tad heavy as it sits.

https://a.co/d/forjhYg

 

[Ehunter56]

Agree with most everything that has been said already. Just one thing I had done for me, and plan on doing with the grandsons in the future. Was started off with a .22 LR. Once that was "mastered", was moved up in caliber. I think a lot of people are too enthusiastic about their 5 +- year old getting their first deer. Totally understandable, but I think starting them at about that age with a .22, getting them comfortable with NO recoil, then moving them up as they show marksmanship to a hunting caliber is the way to go. Can't knock the 223 as a low recoil, but nothing is lower than the .22. Maybe make the kids wait another year or two, and spend that time developing good gun handling and marksmanship skills. During that time, take them hunting, teach them how to set-up, how to track, gut, and become great woodsmen.

 

[Dexter Grayson]

@eric1115 what are your thoughts on the .22-250 compared to the .223 for the little guys?

 

[McCrapper]

@eric1115 what are your thoughts on the .22-250 compared to the .223 for the little guys?

This is what my 8 year old has used the last 3 years. Drops south texas whitetail with style. Just be sure you are using the right bullets like anything.

I shot my first few deer with a .243 and it was “fine” but I had plenty of nervousness behind the trigger because of flinch/anticipation. I didn’t want my kid to have that anxiousness and to be confident behind the rifle, he’s better off for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[eric1115]

@eric1115 what are your thoughts on the .22-250 compared to the .223 for the little guys?

I haven't personally used it in that capacity, but my impression from all I've seen is that if you were to get a fast twist (like the 8tw Tikka) and load it with 7 TMK's, or 80/88 ELDs it would smoke critters very well. Slow twist standard .22-250 will not run bullets I'm interested in shooting big game with. Factory loaded ammo options generally do not offer bullets I'm interested in shooting big game with. UM, Copper Creek, etc might but I have not gone looking.

It would for me sit between the 6 ARC and the .243. shortest barrel life, more blast and recoil than the two top contenders .223 and ARC, but very capable. It gets you past the 400-450 max range generally recommended by us RokSlide cult members for the .223, by a couple hundred yards. I don't need 600 yard hunting capability for my kids (yet, and by the time we do a new rifle will be appropriate anyway), so it's not in the running for me as the disadvantages outweigh the benefit. My round count goals are high enough that .22-250 barrel life becomes a consideration. I don't want to replace that barrel every year or two, for no practical benefit.

Obviously, there are lots of other cartridge options in this general range (6BR, .22CM, as well as 6mm BRX, BRA, Dasher, GT, whatever else the gamers are playing with these days) between my low end and high end of suitable cartridges, but if you're set up to utilize them you probably know exactly where they land compared to what's being discussed.

A .22 ARC or BR would be a sweetheart of a kid's cartridge, but most people won't get much benefit in terms of usable added "killing ability" or however you want to express it, for a substantially increased startup cost and increased running cost/commitment (and the small bump in recoil).

 

[Jbuck]

The thing with suppressors for kids is it's kind of a legal risk if they are teens using your suppressors and not under your direct supervision which is unfortunate. Not sure how much people think/worry of this but it's something that has crossed my mind.

Great thread! After working the public sight in days the last few years at my local range I can say with confidence that most men struggle with anticipating recoil above 223 level in lightweight rifles too.. Sure many can get over it but they must focus on it to do so. Hell of a lot easier to just not think about it because the kick in the shoulder will be light and the bang will be quiet. Took a buddy to the range yesterday who's sole rifle is a bare muzzle t3x lite 308. He mentioned his shoulder was getting pretty tender from shooting his 150 grain factory loads and I know he was fighting off recoil/blast anticipation.

The suppressor thing is hard. I don't let my oldest kid use mine anymore since we don't always hunt next to each other anymore. I don't want to deal with any potential issues.

 

[Jbuck]

Just some random thoughts on this subject. I have 3 boys who all shoot and are all pretty proficient.

Physics says that a object in motion stays in motion until acted upon by an outside force. Which means the way a 200lb man perceives recoil is not the same way a 80lb kid perceives recoil. The smaller kid will get shoved back more as he doesn't have the mass to stop the rifle as fast as an adult. So same guy jumps off a bridge onto concrete or jumps into the water. One slows down faster then the other. It's not as simple as saying that x for a adult = y for a kid.

All of my kids started on 22lr and still like to shoot with short range with them. They get discouraged with the longer range and limitations of the rimfires though.

So fwiw my 10yo has a 6.5grendel for his hunting rifle and it's a solid choice for a youth. He has done 100% of the load development and reloads all his own ammo.

My oldest got into hunting later and got a 6.5cm when he was 16. Perfect gun for him at that age and experience.

I will see where my youngest, 6yo, ends up when he is ready. If I could get one of my 6BR's for run 100% I would probably lean that way. However since they seem to be a little finicky on how the magazines are loaded I'll probably stay away.

Even though my 10yo has a Grendel, a CM would be just as good. You don't need to shoot full power loads all the time. You can either load some reduced power like I do for my wife or buy some.

Just because a 6.5cm can shoot a 140gr bullet at 2800fps doesn't mean it has too. It can also be just as happy shooting a 130gr at 2300(identical to the grendel). But it leave the option to let the rifle grow with the kid.

This is probably a controversial topic, but I don't think everyone should hunt. If you aren't able to shoot the required caliber at the required speed at the required distance you should keep practicing, modify your gear and/or start taking classes.

At some point there needs to be a ethical minimum. I think we all agree. The 22lr can kill a deer just fine, the 22wmr does it fantastically. However the smaller you go the more options you are giving up.

Something I see is people not passing on bad shots, quartering away or facing away. A shot where you need penitration to reach the vitals. Experience tempers us as we learn to let that monster walk away. New hunters haven't learned that yet, so unless there is someone there to reason the situation out. Why handicap yourself with a 223?

I personally feel the 223 is a great cartridge to teach with and good in the hands of experienced hunters. Same as the .410 takes more skill to hunt with then a 12ga.

 

[Formidilosus]

New hunters haven't learned that yet, so unless there is someone there to reason the situation out. Why handicap yourself with a 223?

What specific handicap does a 223 have with 77gr TMK, 73gr ELD-M, etc bullets? Be specific please.

I personally feel the 223 is a great cartridge to teach with and good in the hands of experienced hunters. Same as the .410 takes more skill to hunt with then a 12ga.

Not remotely the same. 223 with good bullets is not the .410 of shotguns.

 

[AkRyan]

What specific handicap does a 223 have with 77gr TMK, 73gr ELD-M, etc bullets? Be specific please.





Not remotely the same. 223 with good bullets is not the .410 of shotguns.

No the .223 is literally the exact same compairison as a .410....you can run slugs and sabots in a 410, it's the smallest of its family, it's kid friendly, kills effectively within its limits. I'm not sure how they could be more alike.

 

[ElPollo]

Just some random thoughts on this subject. I have 3 boys who all shoot and are all pretty proficient.

Physics says that a object in motion stays in motion until acted upon by an outside force. Which means the way a 200lb man perceives recoil is not the same way a 80lb kid perceives recoil. The smaller kid will get shoved back more as he doesn't have the mass to stop the rifle as fast as an adult. So same guy jumps off a bridge onto concrete or jumps into the water. One slows down faster then the other. It's not as simple as saying that x for a adult = y for a kid.

All of my kids started on 22lr and still like to shoot with short range with them. They get discouraged with the longer range and limitations of the rimfires though.

So fwiw my 10yo has a 6.5grendel for his hunting rifle and it's a solid choice for a youth. He has done 100% of the load development and reloads all his own ammo.

My oldest got into hunting later and got a 6.5cm when he was 16. Perfect gun for him at that age and experience.

I will see where my youngest, 6yo, ends up when he is ready. If I could get one of my 6BR's for run 100% I would probably lean that way. However since they seem to be a little finicky on how the magazines are loaded I'll probably stay away.

Even though my 10yo has a Grendel, a CM would be just as good. You don't need to shoot full power loads all the time. You can either load some reduced power like I do for my wife or buy some.

Just because a 6.5cm can shoot a 140gr bullet at 2800fps doesn't mean it has too. It can also be just as happy shooting a 130gr at 2300(identical to the grendel). But it leave the option to let the rifle grow with the kid.

This is probably a controversial topic, but I don't think everyone should hunt. If you aren't able to shoot the required caliber at the required speed at the required distance you should keep practicing, modify your gear and/or start taking classes.

At some point there needs to be a ethical minimum. I think we all agree. The 22lr can kill a deer just fine, the 22wmr does it fantastically. However the smaller you go the more options you are giving up.

Something I see is people not passing on bad shots, quartering away or facing away. A shot where you need penitration to reach the vitals. Experience tempers us as we learn to let that monster walk away. New hunters haven't learned that yet, so unless there is someone there to reason the situation out. Why handicap yourself with a 223?

I personally feel the 223 is a great cartridge to teach with and good in the hands of experienced hunters. Same as the .410 takes more skill to hunt with then a 12ga.

On your physics argument, you appear to be arguing that recoil isn’t as bad for kids because they weigh less and will get moved more by the impact. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are trying to get at, but that makes zero sense to me. Everyone shoots worse with more recoil and kids are going to be more effected by it than adults.

Comparing a 223 with a TMK or ELD to a rimfire and a 410 is also a red herring. Compare the wound channels documented in the 223 thread with what you are getting from your 6.5s. I think the results will surprise you.

No one is saying your kids can’t shoot given the training you are providing. But could they be better and learn more with a 223/TMK combo that recoils less? The answer to that is yes. Could they be more accurate and more effective on game? They will have higher hit rates and will easily do sufficient damage within 500 yards to cleanly kill game if they are skilled enough to shoot at those distances.

 

[Jbuck]

What specific handicap does a 223 have with 77gr TMK, 73gr ELD-M, etc bullets? Be specific please.

223 Ammo for Law Enforcement Operations | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

That study concluded a 77gr bullet penetrates 10-18" and retains 10-30% of its weight.

Quartering away 10" may not be enough penitration to reach the vitals. So you risk making a non-immidiate lethal shot that will run off and die unrecoverable.

A 223 limits your opportunity to shoot at game. Or at least it should.

 

[Formidilosus]

I've chimed in on so many different "what rifle for my age XX kid?" threads that I thought I'd try to consolidate my thoughts here.

My oldest son is 14 now, started shooting centerfire rifles at 9. My younger kids started shooting centerfire rifles at between 5-7 yrs old. 5 kids shooting now, and a bunch of their friends that I have been involved or around as they learn to shoot. probably 20-ish kids? Here's what I've learned in the last 5-6 years.

Recoil matters, a lot. "Handles it pretty well" is way way different from "ideal for building skills as a rifleman." My oldest loves to shoot, wasn't scared of 7mm-08 recoil, but it pushed him around a lot more than I realized at the time. He definitely started to anticipate the shot breaking, even when we played the "dad loads the rifle and puts dummies in there" game pretty regularly.

The common "6.5CM/.260/7mm-08 is a great kids' gun" view is a bad one in my opinion. A 120-140 grain bullet going 2700+ FPS over 42-44 grains of powder is going to have recoil energy in the mid teens at least. 15 ft-lb for a 100lb kid is proportionally like an 8 lb .300WM for a 200lb man (~30 ft-lb recoil). A .243 is around 10-12 ft-lb, and a .223 is 5 or 6 ft-lb. Please realize, your kid gets pushed twice as hard as you do by the rifle. A .243 rocks your kid about like a .30-06 hits you, from a physics lens.

The effect that that recoil has on them is greater also (typically). Think about the snap of a rubber band. It does not scale with body weight, from a physics perspective, it affects you and your kid equally. But a snap that is hard enough to just begin to disrupt your focus and concentration is going to be much more disruptive to the focus and concentration of a child.

A brake is not the answer. Permanent hearing damage will occur, and flinching will not be cured. Several of my friends now have kids with braked 6.5CM's or larger. They anticipate the blast and don't shoot better because of the brake. Double hearing protection is a must at the range and should be done in the field but no one does. In the field, adding ear pro to the shot process is not something I am interested in doing. If you're in a box blind, a pair of electronic muffs are great and while not truly hearing safe are probably fine for a shot or two. The problems I've found are making sure everyone present has them in/on before the shot and the difficulty in quiet communication if not everyone has electronics. The process of teaching a kid to focus and stay composed is enough of a challenge without adding those factors. Carrying electronic muffs sucks in the backcountry/mountains, but I realize that's less of an issue for a lot of folks.

Suppressors are a game changer. Reducing recoil and report/blast has a huge positive impact on letting kids learn to focus on the fundamentals and not tense up in anticipation of the explosion that's about to happen 6 inches from their face. Do it if you can.

With nearly perfect correlation, I see two trends.
1) people who recommend a .308 size cartridge or larger (to include 6.5CM, 7mm-08, etc), often with reduced recoil ammo, have not taught very many kids to shoot. It "worked for them" or their kid "handled it fine". That was me with my oldest. We started him with a 7mm-08 for "his first deer rifle" on the conventional wisdom that it was a great kids' cartridge that he could grow into.

2) people who have taught lots of kids to shoot always recommend the very bottom end of the recoil spectrum. .223, 6mm ARC, MAYBE 6CM/.243 with a suppressor (especially if we're talking about teens rather than 10 yr olds). I very seldom see someone who's been really actively engaged in helping more than a handful of kids become good riflemen recommend 6.5CM or larger for a kids' rifle (and the only ones that do are ones who have never tried .223 or small 6mm with good bullets).

The T3x compact .223 is THE young kid's rifle. Second place is the Howa Mini in 6mm ARC (especially if suppressed). Both are cheap to feed and easy to load for, recoil is very low, and they will kill anything that walks in North America out to 400+ yards with the correct bullet selection (see .223 thread and 6mm thread). I've seen consistently better kills with the 77 TMK and 108 ELDM than I ever did with 120 NBT's out of my son's 7mm-08.

To recap, I 100% believe thad no preteen or early teen child is going to have an optimal learning setup with a rifle that runs more than 150 grains combined bullet and powder weight, and if we are approaching that it should 100% be suppressed. 100 to 125 grains combined weight is far preferable, and the difference is not debatable to anyone I know who has tried both ways.

The difference between a kid watching an impact on steel in the scope and telling Dad, "hit!" before hearing the impact, vs asking Dad whether he hit or not is such a big difference, it really is almost two different activities.

Edit to add: Please feel free to add your experiences of teaching kids to shoot. My hope would be that we could get multiple people who have taught lots of kids and seen trends and patterns, vs what I had when I was starting out (not enough different things tried to draw conclusions about what works better or worse). I think a thread that draws a lot of these experiences together could be a great starting point for folks looking to teach their kids.

Very good. I will add that from teaching a lot of new shooters, and a lot of children to teenagers, there is some more to consistently getting kids/new hunters and shooters to become “into” it.

1). Rifle with sub 6-7ft-lbs of recoil. A 60-120lb kid is not an adult in any way, shape, or form. They don’t have the muscle or bone mass. TBI (traumatic brain injury) or concussions is a real problem. Watch in slow motion a smaller persons head when they shoot a normal hunting weight 6.5cm not locked into a tripod and tell yourself that’s good for them.

2). Short and light that allows them to totally and completely handle the rifle from all positions- standing offhand, tripod, sitting with rest, sitting unsupported, prone, etc. This is massively overlooked by parents and teachers.

3). Detachable mags that are smooth and easy to load- again they should be manipulating the rifle 100% by themself- not you doing it for them. Lay a rifle with internal mag down, and one with a good DBM down- say a Tikka, and kids/women will flock to shoot the Tikka every time.

4). Action that doesn’t bind (this is a big one that is overlooked) as they don’t have the strength to muscle the bolt.

5). Trigger to grip length- make it short. Very short.

6). Suppressed if at all possible- and I mean if not illegal to own where you live. Kids and newer shooters (all shooters really) do not get ear plugs in correctly, ear muffs don’t fit correctly, and even if they do almost never are worn correctly. I would seek every rifle but one to get a suppressed without question.




cont….

 

[Formidilosus]

Overall there is this idea that you should make it as easy as possible- clip the rifle into a tripod, move the rifle onto the target and let them pull the trigger. Same for when hunting “make sure the have success”. No. I followed that line of thinking for quite a few people when I started- it’s terrible advice. It’s not that you artificially make it harder, it’s that you let them have a challenge to overcome and to be apart of the whole process.
What would happen if your kid got on video game, but you controlled the character, moved it into position for them, aimed at it, and all they did was sit and watch you do that, then reach up and pull the trigger? They would quit and never want to play again.

That’s why kids don’t get lifetime addicted/passionate about hunting anymore- there’s no experience, there is no challenge, there’s nothing but walk behind dad as he carries the rifle, stand there he spots the animal, stand there as he sets the tripod/bipod up, stand there as he ranges, stand there as he dials, stand there as he loads the rifle, stand there as he aims it in, then lay down/stand behind it and pull a trigger- yay what fun. If I did that to any parent that does that for kids- he’d rage quit, yet we are told that is how you should do it.
I’ve seen it done, and did it like that for dozens of kids and women- not one is a hunter as an adult. That isn’t fun.
The reverse is to make them apart of the whole thing- the rifle is fit to them and is light enough that they carry it always- it’s their rifle, they load it, they zero it, they dial it, they build the position, etc. It recoils low enough that they can shoot it without any effects whatsoever for 100 plus rounds a day. Once past the fundamentals of shooting on demand, then practice is treated like a game- timer, targets, race each other, etc. Treat it like play- yes it’s a gun, but it can be safe and fun.
When it comes to scouting, they are involved in every aspect- it’s their hunt, not yours. Go walk around the woods, teach them woodmanship, track, game trails, stalk a squirrel- etc. When the hunt comes, let them have a say where you go and how you hunt- just because valley “A” has more animals, doesn’t mean if they want to go to valley “B” that you shouldn’t- let them hunt and learn. If your plan was to hike then sit and glass, but they want to get up and still hunt an hour in- get up, teach them how to still hunt, or track through snow, etc.
When you see an animal- it’s their animal. It’s not about you, nor is it about how much you want them to be successful- let them setup and make the shot. When the animal is down, it’s their animal- they are primarily responsible for gutting it/quartering it, etc. Of course help, but let them have agency over the whole process.

On that, it’s a serious mistake to take a person and have their first animal and experience be a big game animal- especially a child.
There is a psychological component to killing, but there also is an “what now” component with it. You kill a buck or an elk in the beginning- where do they go from there? They didn’t earn it, they didn’t build up to it- you turned the video game on, went right to the main bad guy at the end of the game, they shot him once and it’s over. Again- yay, so fun. People do much better starting small and working their way up- spot and stalk squirrel hunting is probably the best thing one can do.

Children and woman primarily dislike hunting because it isn’t fun. Make it an adventure from start to finish. Certainly make suggestions when it’s prudent, but if they want to get up and go look over the hill, let them or go with them- let them lead. It’s their hunt not yours, so let them hunt. If they get tired sitting at your bestest, most favorite glassing spot- so what. Get up and start stalking- play army or whatever they want. It’s ok to put the guns down and have a pine cone war. A boring sit on a hill can turn into a wrestling match and make a memory forever. It also can be a boring thing with no challenge and no adventure, where they really don’t care to do it again.


I have introduced dozens of new hunters, women, and children; and seen them introduced in about every way possible. Every single one that was introduced and taught as I wrote above- making them apart of the whole adventure- has stayed with it and became lifetime hunters of their own volition. About 90% that were introduced how the masses say to do it, don’t hunt at all, or only extremely rarely- they are not into it.

 

[Jbuck]

On your physics argument, you appear to be arguing that recoil isn’t as bad for kids because they weigh less and will get moved more by the impact. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are trying to get at, but that makes zero sense to me. Everyone shoots worse with more recoil and kids are going to be more effected by it than adults.

That's kind of what I'm saying. The way you perceive recoil is the same as saying felt recoil. The faster you stop the rifle moving backwards with cause a sharper recoil pulse.

Given a smaller person moves with the gun more the recoil pulse will be longer thus lessens the recoil pulse.

I'm just trying to point out that the bigger your mass is the quicker you will stop the rifle from moving backwards after the shot. Same thing happens when you put a thicker softer recoil pad on your rifle.

 

[Formidilosus]

223 Ammo for Law Enforcement Operations | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

That study concluded a 77gr bullet penetrates 10-18" and retains 10-30% of its weight.

Quartering away 10" may not be enough penitration to reach the vitals. So you risk making a non-immidiate lethal shot that will run off and die unrecoverable.

A 223 limits your opportunity to shoot at game. Or at least it should.

You have ignorance about this subject (note: I didn’t say stupid- I said ignorance).
I have killed and watched killed around 300 big game animals all over the US from the smallest antelope and deer, to bear, elk, and moose with 223’s. From contact to 803 yards. As well as hundreds with every caliber from .243 to .338’s.
Laid side by side with identical shot placement you would not be able to say whether a 223 with good bullet made the wound, or whether a 6.5cm made the wound.

There is a massive, master class thread about terminal ballistics and how bullets actually work- that it’s titled about 223 is just icing.

If you read every post in this thread from start to finish, you will not come back and say what you are-

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/

 

[Jbuck]

Overall there is this idea that you should make it as easy as possible- clip the rifle into a tripod, move the rifle onto the target and let them pull the trigger. Some for when hunting “make sure the have success”. No. I followed that line of thinking for quite a few people when I started- it’s terrible advice. It’s not that you artificially make it harder, it’s that you let them have a challenge to overcome and to be apart of the whole process. What would happen if your kid got on video game, but you controlled the character, moved it into position for them, aimed at it, and all they did was sit and watch you do that, then reach up and pull the trigger? They would quit and never want to play again.

That’s why kids don’t get lifetime addicted/passionate about hunting anymore- there’s no experience, there no challenge, there’s nothing but walk behind dad as he carries the rifle, stand there he spots the animal, as he sets the tripod/bipod up, as he ranges, as he dials, as he loads the rifle, as he aims it in, then lay down/stand behind it and pull a trigger- yay what fun. If I did that to any parent that does that for his kid, he’d rage quit, yet we are told that how you do it for kids.
I’ve seen it done, and did it like that for dozens of kids and women- not one is a hunter as an adult. That isn’t fun.
The reverse is to make them apart of the whole thing- the rifle is fit to them and is light enough that they carry it always- it’s their rifle, they load it, they zero it, they dial it, they build the position, etc. It recoils low enough that they can shoot it without any effects whatsoever for 100 plus rounds a day. Once past the fundamentals of shooting on demand, then practice is treated like a game- timer, targets, race each other, etc. Treat it like play/ yes it’s fun, but it can be safe and fun. When it comes to scouting, they are involved in every aspect- it’s their hunt, not yours. Go walk around the woods, teach them woodmanship, track, game trails, stalk a squirrel- etc. When the hunt comes, let them have a say where you go and how you hunt- just because valley “A” has more animals, doesn’t mean if they want to go to valley “B” that you shouldn’t- let them hunt and learn. If your plan was to hike then sit and glass, but they want to get up and still hunt an hour in- get up, teach them how to still hunt, or track through snow, etc.
When you see an animal- it’s their animal. It’s not about you nor is it about how much you want them to be successful- let them setup and make the shot. When the animal is down, it’s their animal- they are primarily responsible for gutting it/quartering it, etc. Of course help, but let them have agency over the whole process.

On that, it’s a serious mistake to take a person and have their first animal and experience be a big game animal- especially a child.
There is a psychological component to killing, but there also is an “what now” component with it. You kill a buck or an elk in the beginning- where do they go from there? They didn’t earn it, they didn’t build up to it- you turned the video game one, went right to the main bad guy at the end of the game, they shot him once and it’s over. Again- yay, so fun. People do much better starting small and working their way up- spot and stalk squirrel hunting is probably the best thing one can do.

and woman primarily dislike hunting because it isn’t fun. Make it an adventure from start to finish. Certainly make suggestions when it’s prudent, but if they want to get up and go look over the hill, let them or go with them- let them lead. It’s their hunt not yours- let them hunt. If they get tired sitting at your bestest, most favorite glassing spot- so what. Get up and start stalking- play army or whatever they want. It’s ok to put the guns down and have a pine cone war. A boring sit on a hill can turn into a wrestling match and make a memory forever. It also can be a boring thing with no challenge and no adventure, where they really don’t care to do it again.


I have introduced dozens of new hunters, women, and children; and seen them introduced in about every way possible. Every single one that was introduced and taught as I wrote above making them a sort of the whole adventure has stayed with it and became left hunters in their own time a volition. About 90% that were introduced how the masses say to do it don’t hunt at all, or only extremely rarely- they are not into it.

I agree whole heartedly with this. And Have similar experiences

 

[Formidilosus]

That's kind of what I'm saying. The way you perceive recoil is the same as saying felt recoil. The faster you stop the rifle moving backwards with cause a sharper recoil pulse.

Given a smaller person moves with the gun more the recoil pulse will be longer thus lessens the recoil pulse.

I'm just trying to point out that the bigger your mass is the quicker you will stop the rifle from moving backwards after the shot. Same thing happens when you put a thicker softer recoil pad on your rifle.

That has nothing to do with the real problem with small framed people and recoil- head movement. TBI’s from guns is a thing, and a 80lbs person shooting a 6.5cm is getting rocked during recoil.

 

[Formidilosus]

I agree whole heartedly with this. And Have similar experiences

You seem to be doing a lot of things very well. But you wildly underestimate the effects of what “mild” recoil is to you, versus a smaller person;
You also do not understand what a 223 loaded with good bullets does. There are zero (0) shot angels that I would take with a 300 mag, that I would not take with a 223 and 77gr TMK on deer/elk/bear/moose.

 

[eric1115]

That's kind of what I'm saying. The way you perceive recoil is the same as saying felt recoil. The faster you stop the rifle moving backwards with cause a sharper recoil pulse.

Given a smaller person moves with the gun more the recoil pulse will be longer thus lessens the recoil pulse.

I'm just trying to point out that the bigger your mass is the quicker you will stop the rifle from moving backwards after the shot. Same thing happens when you put a thicker softer recoil pad on your rifle.

I 100% disagree with this assessment. The kid that weighs half as much is accelerated rearward twice as violently. F=MA as we know, and the same force acting on half the mass results in doubling the acceleration.

Yes it happens over twice the distance, but that's just because the rifle shoves the kid put of the way twice as hard.

It is not the same as a thicker recoil pad. The pad increases the distance the rifle moves before it meets firm resistance and accelerates your shoulder, neck, and head. It allows the recoil energy to be partly absorbed by squishy stuff that can be compressed before it meets hard stuff that needs to be moved out of the way.